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Downsizing an old tube/fin BBHW...

Dan_G
Dan_G Member Posts: 32
I have a upcoming drywall project in my living room and I've been contemplating trying to reduce the size of the 20-30+ year old tube fin HWBB radiator so as to reclaim space along the wall that I'm dry walling.



I had Joe from Ecuacool in last week to do a CA on my Munchkin 80M R1, he agreed that swapping in a SlantFin MultiPak 80-series would do the trick. I posted about my bathroom in another thread and someone mentioned about panel radiators. Now I'm wondering whether or not I should change the type of heat emitter all together for even more efficiency and space savings.



I can't fund changing every HWBB tube/fin in the whole house. The living room is one of seven other rooms on the same zone, all fed by the Munch with a 180*F cutoff, no Vision system. There is a heated second floor above the living room & kitchen.



I've been trying to figure out heat loss calculators, but it's been very confusing. I determined the Design Temp for my area (Brick, NJ) to be 13*F in Winter, and I want a interior temp of 68*F.



The living room has the following specs:

Floor area = (21.416’ x 12.666’) = 269.47 sq. ft.

Room Volume = 269.47 sq. ft. x ceiling height 8.416’ = 2267.923 cu. ft.



There are two double pane/PVC framed windows at 3' x 3.916' on one exterior wall, and the opposite wall is also an exterior wall with a 1.75' x 4.916' double pane/PVC framed window and my front door (3.375' x 6.958').



There are also two entry-ways opposite each other, one on each interior wall (2.958' x 6.625') and (2.541 x 6.583').



The floor is carpeted on open cell foam padding on plywood over a unheated crawlspace on sand. It's wood framed, possibly R11 in the exterior walls.



The current HWBB radiator runs along the entire back exterior wall (12.583') under the two windows and then wraps onto one of the interior for about another 5'.



This house is still 6 months new to me and I'm trying to figure out how all this stuff works, should work and how or if I can make it better without spending more money than the prospective improvements are actually worth in energy savings over the long term. I'd like to try and figure out what might be optimal for this room and then maybe apply the same methodology to the rest of the house over time as money becomes available.



Any assistance, guidance, tutorials, etc, appreciated!
- Dan G.

Munchkin 80M

TACO 009, 007 circulators

SlantFin HWBB

Honeywell t-stats

Comments

  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    Outdoor Reset

    Looks like the "Vision Control" is just a couple of sensors related wiring harness

    http://www.jupiterheating.com/munchkin-boilers/7250P-622.html



    Wayco Wayne frequently posts good advice for HTP systems.  Maybe he'll see this one...
  • CMadatMe
    CMadatMe Member Posts: 3,085
    edited January 2013
    Two Panel Rads

    One under each window would do the trick. Heat loss is around 8,000 btu/hr. Get a 2 loop radiant manifold, pipe 3/8" pex to them and call it a day. Of course they will be thermostatically controlled and would use by-pass style rad valves.



    A couple of Type 21 300 1200 will do the trick



    www.hydronicalternatives.com for the rads.
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
  • Dan_G
    Dan_G Member Posts: 32
    Vision and panel radiators

    How would the Vision system help my situation and can I set it up myself? I can certainly do the wiring and follow HTP's manual, but I wouldn't know how or if I need to tweak it.



    As for the panel radiators, basically I cut out the tube/fin and plumb in the panel radiators with the parts Chris suggested. I'd need to see a diagram of how to do this.



    Could I just use one ~9000 BTU panel rad on one of the two cold wall?



    I really appreciate the assistance. I have to do as much of this myself as possible.
    - Dan G.

    Munchkin 80M

    TACO 009, 007 circulators

    SlantFin HWBB

    Honeywell t-stats
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    outdoor reset

    will adjust your water temp based on the outdoor air temp.  When properly tuned, you don't need a thermostat except to prevent overheating when external heat sources (sun, wood stove, cooking heat, etc.) kick in.  It will increase comfort and efficiency, since it uses the lowest water temp needed to meet demand.  It's best to run continuous circulation on the distribution loop when running ODR.
  • Dan_G
    Dan_G Member Posts: 32
    Vision...

    SWEI, thank for that explanation, that really helped. I will endeavor to get that system implemented.



    Now I just need to sort out the semantica of the panel radiators vs just swapping in a MultiPak 80 tube/fin.
    - Dan G.

    Munchkin 80M

    TACO 009, 007 circulators

    SlantFin HWBB

    Honeywell t-stats
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    panel rads

    What is your long term plan?  If you intend to keep some of the baseboard forever, you will want to size any panel rads to the design temp dictated by those to-be-remaining sections of baseboard.  A room-by-room heat loss is essential if you want even heat once this is done.  Hopefully you will find that the original baseboard was oversized a bit.  Maximizing efficiency means lowering design water temp (say from 180F to 160F, which is often do-able.)  Are any envelope upgrades in place or planned?  Those will also help lower the required water temp.  If the long term plan is to replace all of the baseboard, you can size for a lower water temp and then trim back the panel rads until the rest of the old baseboard is gone, or possibly install a few TRVs on the new rads, particularly if those spaces are infrequently occupied or have solar gain.
  • Dan_G
    Dan_G Member Posts: 32
    Plan...

    SWEI,



    The idea of panel rads in place of the tube/fin originated from questioning whether or not there was a way to reduce the physical footprint of heat emitters in our living room that we are doing a partial renovation ( drywall in place of some wood paneling and some other aesthetic treatments).



    I am still learning how the existing system works. Not surprisingly, I don't have a ton of money to just throw at things, so if any componentry is going to change a cost benet needs to be evaluated. In the case of the living room, I wanted to reduce the size of the tube/fin, maintain or improve the comfort capability and regain wall space for more furniture placement options.



    I know I need to do a heat loos for each room, but I'm still figuring out how to do heat loss calcs without having an engineering or mathmatics degree AND also not knowing every little nuance since I didn't build the structure and don't know all of what's in the walls and such.



    As far as envelope improvements, there are many to be done to this cannibalized 1950's beach bungalow with a massive 21-st century 2nd-floor addition tacked onto it. There are recessed light and bathroom vent fixtures to be sealed up, attic hatches, better door weather stripping, adding more insulation to one of the attics (yes, there are two attics) and other odds and ends.



    There are 11 rooms in the house and the living room, kitchen and master bedroom are where spent the bulk of our time. The bathrooms are secondary and then the rest of the rooms' functions haven't been determined yet. My fiance' and I have only been in here for 8 months.



    I appreciate all of the advice and I think half the battle is just learning the basics of how these systems should function and then how to adapt them to environment that they're installed in. So forgive me for not being a contractor, but I'm just not in the income bracket necessary to pay someone to come in and do it all for me. At best, I would pay for a consultation, but with the understanding that any implementation would be DIY.
    - Dan G.

    Munchkin 80M

    TACO 009, 007 circulators

    SlantFin HWBB

    Honeywell t-stats
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