1930s recessed convection radiator cover problem

painter33

As the title indicates I have a house with 1930s recessed convection h/w heating with painted steel Art Deco radiator covers. Just to ID the type of cover, the Deco covers have a center hole for the long stem of the handle that changes the deflection angle of a curved piece of sheet metal that alters the direction and amount of heat coming from the top grilles. Now the problem; it also has a flush-mount bleeder valve self-bolted to the plain face of the cover. Over many decades of use, the stems of many of the valves have been stripped, or worn round (started square for use of a key), and so I can't bleed every radiator. How can I replace the valves? No contemporary valves that I can find attach can directly to the radiator cover, but even installing new valve types means removing the covers that have been painted in place since the late '30s and I would lose direct access to the bleeder. I've tried using a key and needle nose pliers to no avail - the space around the valve stem is too small. What should I do to replace the valves with something available or to install another valve but maintain access to it without having to remove the front cover? Sorry for the length of this.

billtwocase

pics

will do wonder. post em if you got em

painter33

Pics

Will do - tonight. I should have included one but I was at work when asking the question.

painter33

Radiator Cover Bleeder

Here is an images of the Deco radiator cover showing the knurled nut that holds the valve. I'd have to take the cover off (cutting the paint around the cover) to show the actual valve. It attaches to the radiator with a singe small diameter soft copper (bendable, not a flexible) tube. Hope this is sufficient. I haven't found another like it anywhere on the Internet despite ours of searching. The handle shown is for the curved deflector to alter the amount of heat coming through the cover grilles.

painter33

Behind the Cover

Here are two images of the valve that hangs from the inside of the cover:

SWEI

Is that a Hoffman No. 2

with an air line?

painter33

ID VALVE?

Hope you're not asking me (the dummy who asked the question). If it is, I'm going to assume it's not available given the age, so a one-for-one swap isn't going to happen. Right?

bob_46

System

Are you sure your system is hot water and not steam ?

painter33

Hot Water or Steam

It's a hot water system with two zones. One zone is the primary that feeds most of the house and that's where these valves are.

SWEI

hot water

may have been converted (presumably from vacuum/vapor steam)?

painter33

Valve

Does the history matter? It's a hot water system with these valves. I'm trying to 1. bleed the system; 2. eventually replace with a like valve to retain the same radiator cover with an accessible bleed screw; and 3. not have to create more work (galv. etc.) that entails draining the system now (I know in warmer weather I will have to drain it to change the valves). If I can find the valves, I'll be prepared to do the work.

SWEI

history matters

in that the conversion may have been the source of your troubles.  If that "valve" is actually a stem vent, it needs to be removed and the return pipe needs to be connected to the radiator using full size pipe using an appropriate stop valve.

pipeking

PAINTER

    which pipe configuration most applies to u? if neither can u give us an e.g. of yours?

painter33

System

It's the first (left) - a loop system.

pipeking

idowno

  do u no the brand convector (i don't think that will help). well if they r all broke then theres no way around the fact that the covers r gonna have to come off. if u lake the idea of not taking the covers off to vent them either use auto vents, ORRR hard pipe a coin vent to the hole in the convector!!

painter33

Valves

Not all have worn bleeder screws, in fact, only three out of fourteen. The valves function properly without problems other than the worn brass screws. The only in situ repair might be to cut a kerf into the screw with a Dremel to use screwdriver instead of a key or trying to insert needle nose pliers into the limited space. I was hoping to find if the screw part could be replaced, if possible, but I have to find a sample to experiment on, and find out that, if I continue to back off the screw, would it come out as a small part that could be replaced? Again, the valves work perfectly, it's just the worn screws that are troublesome. I don't believe I'll ever find a valve that fits the flat knurled nut that fixes the screw housing/valve onto the front of the radiator; therefore, I'd like to repair rather than replace. By the way, I really appreciate everyone's attention and time.

Charlie from wmass

If you are very lucky

The stem of a new coin vent, key vent, or what ever the local name for a water radiator vent will fit. You need to buy one and try it. Make sure you have taken the pressure off your system and shut it down before removing the stem. You can try it on one that is not stripped first. I think you may have a converted system as stated and removing the covers is not the end of the world. Make sure to cut the paint with a utility knife and clean out the screw heads before trying to remove them. They should be taken off twice a year vacuumed out anyways.

SWEI

valves

Assuming now that these are automatic air vents.  The first question is do you actually need automatic vents?  A straight bleeder should fit in there OK. 

painter33

Wrong Term

Maybe I should be writing that I want to either replace the "plug" or cut a slot for a flathead screwdriver. If I can back out the plug, is there a possible replacement for that small part; it would solve the problem? Because the plug is obviously threaded, it stands to reason though doesn't guarantee, that if one continues turning the plug to open, continuing in that direction should release the plug from the valve to be removed and replaced.

SWEI

piping

I see a horizontal iron pipe with a reducing 90 at the end pointing up.  Cut the soft copper line off and unthread the part which is screwed into the 90.  Screw the new vent into the open end of the 90.  Depending on the sizes of the ell and the vent you may need a reducer bushing.

painter33

Lucky? Maybe now

I hadn't thought of using a good screw but probably would have just before trying to remove a worn one. Thanks! If I can change only the screw, see image, then my problems are solved. I'm not a stranger to general plumbing - I've installed new bathrooms w/vent and soil stacks, repaired hot water heaters, installed circulators and baseboard systems in apartments, and most other "90/60/30 degree" work w/copper and PVC. I used Economy Plumbing in Jamaica Plain (Boston) when restoring an 1820 house, and they were great to work with. I needed help with this little problem, because I'm ignorant about the insides of bleeder valves and also the age of what is there. I think everyone has been helpful here.



BTW Is Joe's still open? One of two memories of Lee (summer 1970): Joe's Diner and a very narrow bar on Main St. Long, strange story about the bar, but Joe's stands out - a poor art student spending eight weeks at Tanglewood, and anything reasonably priced was good. The Penguin on Rt. 7 and the Busy Bee in Pittsfield are two others that come to mind.

painter33

Valves

Not automatic. These are manual bleeders that use a square key to open/close. The heat works perfectly - never a problem EXCEPT for worn bleeder screws/plugs that reduce the ability to bleed three of them fully. See below.



Thanks.

painter33

Source

Thanks, but the source of the problem is worn manual bleeder stems on three of fourteen radiators. I'm not sure that there is a "need" to do anything major. Everything functions properly, heat comes up fast, and accurately responds to the thermostats. "Need" would be a factor if one or none of those were occurring. The efficiency of the system resides in the boiler, not the radiators, and while not a new boiler, it comes on and stays on, and our gas bills are very reasonable. Nothing is rusted (had a hot air system in another house that rusted so badly that gas was escaping into the house - a "Quick! Shut it off and fix it" situation. This has no emergency or efficiency imperative. The house was built in the late '30s (other house was from 1812) and the boiler appears to be an '80s/early '90s replacement - Burnham gas-fired electric start. I bought this house in '09.

pipeking

good thinkin charlie

that b nice!!

billtwocase

bleeders

replace the coin vents. Remove the 1/8" brass elbow, tubing, etc, and install the vent directly in the BI bushing. As Charlie said, the cover should come off to clean the convector of dust, et, and give it a quick bleeding while you're in there. Most important to take the pressure off the boiler before you remove any fittings. If it is something that you don't feel good about doing, have a pro do it. You can also have hivents /auto vents installed instead of a manual bleeders if you'd rather

Charlie from wmass

Joe's is still there

Joe who ran Joe's when you were there still owns the building but sold the diner to another Joe who has since pasted away and it is now run by his widow. Same tile and counter though.

Penguin became a Pizza place. My father did the plumbing there that is now Halpin's Gub and Grog. The narrow bar Main street I think is where the water testing lab is now. Tanglewood is still going strong of course. The Busy Bee I know only by name.

SWEI

Pittsfield?

Good Indian place downtown.  Haven't been there in awhile... 

Charlie from wmass

I know one downtown Springfield

never been to one in Pittsfield.

painter33

Got what I asked for!

Many thanks to all who have replied and for all of your suggestions. I can do everything myself without the need to bring someone in - sorry pros, but I can do more than change light bulbs - but I appreciate the work everyone does.

SWEI

no offense taken

but there are still some unanswered questions you might want to think about.



First in my mind is how often do you open these and get air? 

Charlie from wmass

I also think

the old chrome vents need removed before they let loose. Remember if it were not for the wall a pro would have needed to have come out, and chances are they would not have been one with that simple of a fix.

SWEI

agreed

Covers need to come off and some new coin/key vents installed.  Probably less than $10 per radiator in parts cost but it will take a bit of time if those Deco covers are going to to keep their good looks.

painter33

Bleeding

Thanks. After the first bleeding of the season, they haven't required any attention until the following year, even though, from time to time I check. All I get is water. If there were other boiler or valve problems I would imagine that air would be collecting in the lines. My problem is only three (3) worn bleeder screw heads, the entire system works as it should and has never failed, which is why I think either replacing the small part or putting a slot in the worn square head (see image in previous response) is the answer. How many times does a job get more complicated once something is opened up to inspection? It's the process of opening the can (of worms) that becomes the culprit, not something within that which has been opened. Old objects can often be perfectly functional until they are taken apart - that's when the trouble starts. I don't want to fix something that isn't broken.

painter33

Cost

I'm not concerned about the cost, per se, only to bleed the air out of the radiators that have worn square heads while the heat is on - it's cold outside for this area, between 10 and 30 degrees night/day. Once the heat is down for the warmer months, anything can happen.....

painter33

This posted twice. Please ignore.