Advice on uneven heat in apartment bldg

Reba27

Hi all! I am new to the site, trying to sort out a heating issue at my building.



4-story apartment building, 16 units. One-pipe steam system with relatively new boiler (installed 2009). Programmable thermostat with outdoor sensor and 3 indoor sensors all on the 4th Floor.



Everyone in the building reports being happy with their heat levels except two of the 4th Floor units. The one who is the coldest does not have a sensor in her apartment.



I have spoken to the boiler service company. They told me that since the other two top-floor units are getting enough heat, it is not a system-wide or pressure issue (also the pressure settings were checked during the winter start-up in Sept).



They said it is most likely a combination of: radiator size, radiator vent sizing/function, and radiator tilt, along with the usual things like heat loss through the roof and windows, etc.



I moved in right after the new boiler was installed, but apparently part of the job involved inspecting all radiators and balancing the system with vents of proper size etc.



Anyway, I am wondering if there could be a pipe sizing issue, or pipe pitch issue, or something else that is causing her radiators not to heat up enough. She reports them getting warm sometimes and never hot.



Is it possible that there is a water backup or something between her apartment and the one below? I am two floors below and my heat is totally good, all radiators heat up very nicely.



I would also love recommendations for who to call to address this sort of stuff (regular plumber, boiler company, heating system specialist) in NYC area.



Thanks so much!

Reba27

One other note

Ooops, forgot this part:



The coldest apartment has only 2 radiators, with one riser pipe in the bathroom. The apartments on the same floor with sufficient heat have 3-5 radiators and a riser in the bathroom. My apartment is the same size, but we have 2 radiators and 3 risers.



Thanks again

nicholas bonham-carter

slow rads

a perfectly maintained and installed 1-pipe system will have the steam arriving on each floor at each radiator at the same time. can you jump the controls to simulate a call for heat, and verify that each radiator on the ground floor gets steam at the same time, then for the top floor, etc.

most problems are due to inadequate main venting, and many control systems such as you appear to have were sold as a panacea for general lack of venting, and pressure control. their adjustments were designed to compensate rather than control, so when you have returned the system to the state of operation it was when first built, then the control will need readjusting, or replacing with perhaps a Tekmar 279. don't spend any money on new radiator vents yet, as until you have made sure the main venting is capacious, you won't know which radiator vents need to be changed.

verify with a good low-pressure gauge, that the pressure does not exceed 1.5 psi, and preferably, 6 ounces, for economy.

check back here later with the results of the test, and we can go further.--nbc

Reba27

Thank you for reply

NBC, thanks for the reply. Re: mains venting, I thought the mains are the vertical pipes feeding up through each section of the building, so the vents at the top of the vertical riser pipes are the first thing to check? Since she is on the top floor, and doesn't have risers with her radiators, I was thinking that in fact her radiators are the top of those two mains? Is that not correct?



And, is the pressure test you're recommending something we should have the building plumber do?



Thank you I will look into it....

nicholas bonham-carter

Mains vs risers

The mains run horizontally from the boiler header all throughout the basement. Risers are connected to them going up to the radiators on each floor. Some times 1riser supplies steam to radiators on each floor, and sometimes each radiator has its own riser.

Some how, steam is being prevented from getting to some radiators.

Why wouldn't the service company try to find the cause?

Is this because the coop, management are wrongly considering the apartment radiators a separate item to be maintained by the owner? When anything is done, the system as a whole must be treated as one system. What one owner may do can throw off the whole system.

Have you tried the find a contractor button at the top? Search by state, and not zip code.

2 names come to mind. Jstar and. Gateway plumbing.

You can read their posts here before calling and see from their writing they are competent, courteous, and communicative



http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum/profile/5500625/JStar





http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/141591/Thanks-to-Gateway-Plumbing-and-Heating-Help-NJ







. Good luck, and keep us posted.--NBC

NYCLandlord

same type of building here

Like you, I'm managing a 5story, 20 unit, 1 pipe steam, with new boiler and new Tekmar 279.  All summer and this winter, I'm trying to find the optimal setting.

Here are my findings:  People still leave their AC in the windows.  Some people have their beds right next to the radiator.  Some people try to control the heat using the shut-off valve.  Some people have smaller radiators.

You can make some people happy some of the time, but you cant make everyone happy all the time.

Before digging into the number or radiators, or radiator size, I think first thing is to confirm that the radiators in those apts are getting just as hot as all the others in the building.  Do the steam heat S.O.P.  Verify boiler pressure is less than 2psi, have the correct combination of air vents, vent mains, correct radiator tilt, open all valves completely.  If those radiator heat up just as hot and just as long as the warm units, then the system is working correctly.  Maybe those cooler units have a heat sink(old windows, or ac still mounted on windows) or tenants just more sensitive to cold.  We found that if you start cranking up the heat (via higher pressure, or longer run time) to accommodate the cooler units, you'll see other tenants opening windows.

It sounds like the settings are good, you may just need to add a larger radiator.  Many older NYC apartment buildings renovated the layout and the radiators were not changed according to the room size leaving some with too large for the roomsize and others too small.

The best you can do is to save waste and achieve an average comfort level throughout the building, then work on those problem apartments or tenants one by one.