Still no heat

Fizz

in upstairs rad.  Recently removed Gorton #2 vent and ran system for 12 hrs, noticed riser would heat to base of floor, where with vent in place it would reach valve.  Valve is new, system is Richardson which is 2 pipe vapor, there are 3 add-ons, also 2 pipe.  Vaporstat shows system operates between 2-3 oz with vent, 1-2 oz without.  As noted in prior post system riser goes to T, short loop heats extremely well, long loop fairly well, a few extemely well.  Attached is scheme for review.

Thanks

Fizz

Rod

System Problems

Hi- I read up on your past posts and it sounds like you have a really hodgepodge system. I looked over  your diagram above and am still rather confused as to your system's layout.There has to be something elementary that is causing the problem.  I find in these situations it is best to go back to the basics and check to see if all the proper parameters are in place.

Keep in mind:

1. That steam flows from area of high pressure to areas of low pressure.

2. If air is in the way it stops steam from moving.

3. In a gravity system, water flows down hill.



Consider each "loop" and it's parts as an individual component.  Consider how the air escapes the mains and how condensate (water) returns to the boiler. For condensate (water) flow there must be slope

For air to escape, there either has to be a Main Vent at the end of the Steam Main and for condensate there has to be  piping which drops down from the end of the steam main and connects to the Wet Return below the boiler's waterlevel OR a pipe connection from the steam maim to the Dry Return main which has a Trap which allows air and water to pass but NOT steam.



Return Main-  Return mains should only contain air and condensate (water) The Return Main has to be sloped so that the condensate will flow in the desired direction. At the low end of the Return Main there needs to be a Main Vent to allow the air to escape and piping dropping down from the end of the return main into the Wet Return to return the condensate to the boiler. It is very important that none connnects with another return pipe except in the wet return well below the boiler’s waterlevel. If they connect above the waterlevel they will cross feed and this affects the high to low pressure differential and may stop the air/steam flow in one or more mains.



I mention all of the above as you need to check each loop and see if the above parameters are satisfied. I would also be a bit concerned about the added radiators. Is the piping sizes sufficient to handle the added EDR?  What about steam distribution, are there orifices or adjustable orifice valves on all the radiators?

- Rod

                    

 

Fizz

Back to basics

The Richardson system called for an air expeller for each loop dry return, no vents for steam mains.  Currently my system has 2 vents, one is a Gorton #2 which vents both main loops(See attached scheme), and a Gorton #1 which vents add-on to kitchen rads(2) with combined EDR of 140, supply pipe is 2", return 1".  These are controlled by adustable Trane valves, and heat very well.  The other add-on is piped from lateral to Richardson rad of 30 EDR which is controlled by new Mepco orificing valve; the add-on is also 30, and heats well.  Piping is 11/4" supply and 3/4 return.  This radiator also is controlled by graduated valve.  The Richardson which doesn't heat is controlled by Mepco orificing also.  All other rads have original Richardson graduated valves per specs.  As far as I can tell all pipes are properly sized and pitched.  Checked all radiator returns for steam and they are ok.  The return riser from radiator in question has a thumping sound when steam begins to rise up supply riser.

Thanks Rod

nicholas bonham-carter

Richardson system

Have you tried running the boiler briefly with the non functioning radiator removed? Does the steam arrive?

Could there be a horizontal part to the supply to this radiator on its way up, which may have sagged out of pitch, trapping some water?--NBC

Fizz

Steam arrives

with rad disconnected at supply valve.

nicholas bonham-carter

Return problem

Can you put a large inflate plastic bag over the open return, and in squeezing the air out of the bag establish it is open?

Does stem come out the return side of the radiator?--NBC

Fizz

Will try

what you suggest.

Thanks,

Fizz

Fizz

Did what you

suggested, interesting results.  Being the system is Richardson, removed ball from el and during cycle steam only climbed 1/2 way up riser, so during cycle, removed supply side pipe connection, no movement on steam, very little air coming from rad!  Have restored radiator system and waiting for heat to recycle.

Rod

System Problems

  Hi- I must first preface this by saying that I’m a homeowner with a 1 pipe steam system and my only real experience with 2 pipe systems is in helping out several of my neighbors that have them.

The way I see it is that now, due to utilizing a modern boiler/burner, the result is sort of vestigial system that needs to be adapted to the account for the operational differences of the newer boiler/burner. The big different being that you are now using oil or gas for fuel and not coal and now the burner heat is immediate and intermittent and not the slow steady heat of a coal fire. With the change to an immediate / intermittent heat one needs to think how the system needs to be adapted to accommodate this change.

      The original Richardson system didn’t have main vents on the steam main as it didn’t need them. When the coal fire was stated the fire slowly built and slowly built up steam which over a long period of time slowly pushed air out of the system by way of the radiators and the Main vent.

With a modern boiler/burner steam builds quickly and the faster you need to get the air out of the steam main so that steam  can get into the radiators, the faster the radiators heat up and satisfy the thermostat setting which means the burner is on a shorter time and this saves fuel. To get the air out of the steam mains faster you need main vents at the end of each steam main. You can either run it an ordinary 2 pipe system by using Gortons as main vents or as a vacuum system by using Hoffman #76 s.  Each steam main needs a means for the condensate to return to the boiler so there needs to be a drip line into the wet return from the end of each steam main.



The Returns - Each Return needs it’s own main vent and the return should terminate in the wet return. (The return piping shouldn’t join together until well below the boiler’s water level!) Using a common vent as you have now can lead to an imbalance and cross feeding.



Orifices- With an orifice (adjustable or an orifice plate) in the inlet valve you don’t really need a radiator trap as the orifice meters the amount of steam that can enter the radiator. The orifice needs to be adjusted so that there is just enough steam to satisfy the radiator’s needs but not enough to enter the return piping.



To sum it all up-

1. I can’t see any harm (add likely a big benefit) by adding main vents to your steam mains.

2.The Returns I would separate and give each one its own drip and main vent.

3.The new additions rather puzzles me as I don’t know the piping configuration. I think I would consider treating it as a separate “loop”with its own main vent on the steam main and its own return vent on the return and also have a separate dry return/ drip line to the wet return.



So much for my 2 cents worth. Hopefully the above gives you some helpful ideas NBC is giving you some good ideas to try out. The tiny air hole in the Richardson Radiator Elbow I would think could cause a problem. Since you have a adjustable orifice on this radiator you might just try the radiator with a regular elbow on the return side

- Rod

fixitguy

Richardson

Well, now I'm, thoroughly confused! I have a richardson system from 1916 Boilers replaced in 1948 & 2012 and it is set up with the steam main returns unvented, & the radiator returns vented with gorton #1s. All the loops come together above the waterline and drop to the wet return. The darnedest thing is that the system works like a charm. All the radiators are completely hot in under a 1/2 hour from dead cold. totally silent except for one radiator, ( the bedroom of course) where the ball rattles slightly and it sounds like its breathing. System runs at 1/2 lb. You've got me thinking, what if I add venting to the steam side and wet the bottom of the drips? On the other hand, why fiddle with a well running system. ( because we're men and it's steam)

Fizz

Confused Richardson

indeed.  Are you saying your system has a gorton #1 for each radiator, or for each return line?  Did your system ever have a main air vent?  If so, what's there now?  Do your dry returns meet and share same air vent and drip to wet return?  In any event, if system is working well, don't fixit!