Radiator vent sizes

Jeffrs

Hello all, nick to this form. I tried doing a quick search but hasn't exactly found some insight as to what's going on with my steam heat.

So I purchased a 1904 home back in October. The house is equipped with a newer Weil mclane boiler. My main concern was that I received a high gas bill (292, high for me that is) for the month of November to December with temps of 35-40 degrees out. Now the house is older and may need more insulation, the house does have some drafts and is about 1800 sqft. There is 8 radiators in the house and I've had to fix leaks from the union nut attaching the radiator to the supply valve on 3 of them and then level half of um. The heating seems to work ok but it's not very even. The kitchen is always the coldest, but the kitchen is off the back of the house and not over the basement but over its own crawl space. The kitchen is also the longest run from the boiler on the first level and uses smaller piping then the rest of the radiators. This radiator also looks more like a standard hot water radiator rather then the large steam radiators which exist everywhere else in the house. Also the kitchen radiator uses two pipe while the rest of the house is one. I'm sure the fact of the differences of the kitchen and its radiator don't help. In any case, now inspecting the vents I've found that the kitchen has D size Gorton horizontal pointed vent, 3 of the radiators have a large vertical pointed cylinder shaped vent. Im guessing that these are adjustable type? And the rest have Gorton valves like the kitchen but size C. The pressuretrol is set to .5 I believe and water level seems to be ok.



So I guess my questions are:

Are those vent sizes to big for everywhere else? I was thinking maybe trying a 4 in the ro where the thermostat is located. A 4 everywhere else downstairs. Leaving the D in the kitchen and going up to 6's and/or C's upstairs depending on the location.



All the vents whistle, I think it's only before the steam reaches the radiator not while there is steam in the radiator so I think most are working right but not positive. There fairly loud and wake my 1 year old son up at times. Would vent size affect this?

Also there's no main vents. Should I install some and where should I install them on the system and how many would I need?



Finally I check the water level often, I do have an automatic water feed. The water in the sight glass is quite rusty at times. I've drained the boiler a couple of times when I first moved in but it didnt do much. Is this normal?



I apologize for the very long post, I just wanted to provide details to help aid with any and all thoughts you can give me.

I appreciate any and all help everyone can give me and hopefully you can point me in the right direction.



Thank you

JStar

Steam

The radiator vents whistle because of the lack of main venting. ADD MAIN VENTING. Lots of it. It's one of the biggest benefits to a system and will help reduce fuel costs at the same time.



The boiler water will always be a little dirty, no more than tea colored. Any more than that and the boiler should be flushed out.



Take some pictures of the boiler's piping and the end of the steam mains. We can advise where to add venting.

Mark N

New to steam

As a homeowner like yourself, I would pick up a copy of "We've Got Steam Heat" sold on the shop of this website. Many things can lead to high heat bills, poor venting, an oversized boiler, poor near boiler piping, thermostat placement or set-up. How long does the boiler run on a call for heat? What do you have thermostat set at? Are the pipes insulated in the basement?

Jeffrs

Energy cost

I will post pictures tonight after work of the mains. Will poor venting have as much of a dramatic effect on the energy consumption?

Also what is your opinions on the current vent sizes? Just searching google someone mentioned a 5 should be all thats needed and a 6 on the furthest.

As for theprevious questions, All the mains are insulated for the most part, theres maybe afew small spots where the insulation breaks. I keep the thermostat at 65 from 8pm till 8 am and 70 at 8am till 8pm. I never actually watched how long but, I would say it takes 45 minutes to and hour almost to bring the house up from 65 to 70. I understand that a lot effects energy bills, particularly weather and the insulation quality of the house, but would you say that my heat bills are high? Or Do I need to accept the fact that with steam heat that Im probably going to have energy bills over 2 or 300 during the winter months?

final question, about the vents again, I had mentioned earlier that I have 3 radiators with large vertical pointed vents (again, Im guessing these  are adjustable type, they look like the ones available at lowes). What type are these and should they work the same way as the others? Because they dont whistle while steam is being made, but rather they make a pop of sound once the steam is made for a short burst of a second or 2. Im sure this is hard to understand just by explanation, but does this sound normal?

Thank you all again for the help 

BobC

Depends on the system

Vent sizes depend on a lot of things but in general you want to vent the mains very fast and the radiators slowly, how slowly will depend on your system.



Try timing how long it takes the steam to get from the boiler header to the end of the steam main. If it's insulated it should be pretty quick. If you tell us how long your mains are, what size the pipe is, and what vents are on them now we can tell you what you should have on them.



Having enough main venting and operating at low pressure will save gas.



Bob

Jeffrs

measure the mains

I will post pictures tonight and measure the mains tonight, For measuring the mains, i guess the best question to ask for clarification is what exactly are the mains? up to the radiator? or up to return pipe? Theres 4 mains off the manifold, One to the back of the house for the kitchen, one to the front left where it splits to 2 for a first floor radiator and an upstairs radiator, one to the front right where it splits to 2 just the same as the front left, and then one off to the right where it splits for one on the first floor and one on the second floor. Is the mains up to this point where they split? or do i need to include the piping up the wall to the second floor in the measurement?

Thank you very much again

Paul48

Basic Steam

http://www.gogeisel.com/geiselonline/support/Hoffman/Steam_Vents/Basic_Steam_Heating_Systems_1_2_Pipe.pdf

Mark N

Gas Bill

I find it very economical and comfortable to heat with steam. If you main and rad venting is not right your boiler can run a long time and give you no heat. Many replacement boilers are oversized when they are installed causing you to spend more than necessary to heat your home. Also do not forget if you have other gas appliances they are contributing to your gas bill. My boiler is 105kbtuh input and for 2012 my gas bill for heating came out to $645. The thermostat is kept at 70 all winter. My boiler is properly sized for my home and well vented. Take the time to learn what you have and how it works. At the top of this page click on the tab for "Systems" and choose steam. Read what is available there.

Jeffrs

main pictures

So heres the pictures of the mains.

I checked the measurement between the header and water line. Its 24" between the center of the sight glass and the center of the header pipe. So thats right.

Should the header have insulation on it? I would think so.

Please let me know if you see any thing wrong in the pictures and if possible advise the best spots to add main vents.

The kitchen piping in the last photo is kinda hard to see, the piping runs into a crawl space, but it runs almost to the far brick wall to the radiator.



On another note, the kitchen is 2 pipe with the return just returning to the condesation line, but I don't think there is a trap on the kitchen radiator or piping. what problems would this create?

Thank you again.

Paul48

Manual

Check the manual for your boiler. The near boiler piping is wrong. They used a reducer coupling coming out of the boiler, and it looks like they bushed it down at the small end of the coupling.

Jeffrs

Manual says 2"

So I just looked at the manual a bit. It appears to say for a PEG-45 header minimum size should be 2". I see the reducer your referring to but it's a 2" header. So it should be ok I would think, no?

The system heats. There are some odd things warranting some diag and service such as:

The water level bounces and doesn't seem to change much throughout the heating cycle.

Do I need to skim the boiler?

Also the water is always rusty, I clean the gauge and have drained the boiler before, but I know it's not good to drain it much as new water takes life off the boiler. Do I need to flush? How do I go about flushing, and once I flush it how I often do I flush it?

Also the pressure gauge never moves. It always pinned at 0. Perhaps the gauge is faulty?

Besides that, the only real major problems are high fuel bills, loud radiator vents, and uneven heat, which sounds like they can be attributed to lack of main vents.

I attached the pictures previously in hopes that someone can say where to put the main vents? Perhaps 15" before each main tees to go to each of its radiators?

Also if anyone can tell me if they see any other inherent problems to the system.

I thank you all for the help thus far. If any one can please shed more light and share there thoughts I greatly appreciate it.

Thanks

Paul48

2 1/2"

That 2" may be for the EG. It's a no-no to reduce at the boiler tapping. One of the steam pros will probably weigh in on this.

Jeffrs

Double check

I'll double check but I believe the manual said the EG 45 required 2.5" while the PEG only needed 2"