Question about Radiator Size

ellentk

The radiator in one of the rooms in my rental apartment doesn't draw much steam unless the landlord turns the thermostat up and in the early morning, when a lot of heat comes up. This radiator is also small. Would replacing it with a larger unit draw more steam or would the larger unit also remain cold or cool as long as the thermostat setting is not increased?

   Since the radiator gets hot more often as the thermostat setting is raised, I'm assuming it works okay, but wonder about the effect the size of the radiator would have in this situation.

   Thanks for any explanations.

Paul48

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Is it a 1 pipe or 2 pipe system?

Rod

Radiator Venting

Hi- It sounds like you just need to adjust the radiator venting. Here's the basics. The burner on the boiler is controlled by the thermostat. When the room the thermostat is located in heats up to the setting on the thermostat,the thermostat shuts the burner off. It sounds as though your radiator is heating okay and it's just slower heating up than the radiator in the roomer where the thermostat is located, You didn't say what type of steam system this is. The type of system is determined by how many pipes go to each radiator. 1 pipe = a 1 pipe system. 2 pipes = a 2 pipe system

   I'm going to assume that the steam system you have is 1 pipe and that means there is a radiator vent connected to the radiator on the opposite end from where the steam pipe is connected. The vent will usually look like either a can of cat food on its side or like a silver bullet pointing upward. What this vent does is allow air to escape from the radiator through a small orifice but when steam reaches the orifice, it closes and traps the steam inside the radiator.

     Radiator vents are available in different size orifices. A small orifice means the air will escape slowly and this also slows the steam entering the radiator as it has to wait for the air to get out of its way before it can fill the radiator. Some vents are available with adjustable orifices. What you might want to try is a vent with a larger orifice as this means the steam will enter your radiator quicker. (On hearing this most people think: One immediately thinks, “Wow!.. I'll just go with the biggest orifice I can find!” The problem with this is that using a very large orifice can cause problems too )

   Take a look at your vent and see it you can find a name and a number on the vent. You might also post a picture of your radiator and vent as this will help identify what youhave.

   If it is a one pipe system, be sure that the inlet valve on the steam pipe going into the radiator is fully open and the radiator very slightly sloped towards the inlet

steam pipe.

- Rod

ellentk

Question about Radiator Size

I live in an apartment building and the thermostat is in the basement.  It reads the outside temperature and turns the heat on at a certain level (marked by letters starting with A).  It always goes on when the temperature falls below a certain degree but how much heat the boiler sends up to the apartments depends on how high the letter guage is set to. 

    The radiator is a one-pipe radiator.  I think the vent is fine because the radiator gets hot early in the morning when the steam first comes on and occasionally during the day and night.

    My landlord won't turn the heat up any higher and I thought perhaps a larger radiator may draw more heat, but as I learn more from your explanations, I'm thinking maybe not?

   (By way of explanation, the room that's cold is exposed on three sides plus the ceiling, which is under a terrace, and there's no insulation. The rest of the tenants are comfortable and in the past some have complained that there's too much heat when it's high enough to heat my now cold room.)

   I've already some insulating plastic around windows and leaky seams, which helped a lot, but that hasn't completely solved the problem.

   Thanks so much for your help.

BobC

faster air vent?

having 3 sides exposed to the outside and no insulation in the walls makes it tough to keep warm. If the radiator has a single pipe feeding it there should be an air valve on the opposite side to where the pipe comes in. What kind of valve is that, post a picture of it if you can.



A faster air vent should get you more of the steam, it may not solve your problem but it should help.



Bob

ellentk

Question about Radiator Size

The valve is a Gorton Vapor Equalizing Valve, No. C.  I've attached a photo.



The inlet valve is fully open.  I can't tell about the slope.  I've attached a photo.

The radiator is sitting on two blocks of wood, which look about equal height, don't know if my floor is level.  You can barely make out the wood in the photo, which is about an inch high.



Related questions, as you guys are so great at educating me,

   Why does the steam pipe in my bathroom get more frequently warm than the radiators?

   Will a bigger radiator help in my situation?

BobC

system imbalance

A Gorton C is a pretty aggressive vent so i suspect the problem is with the system balance. If all the radiators in the warm parts of the building were to have their venting rates lowered that would encourage the steam to go to the one (s) that don't seem to heat up all the time. i suspect your bathroom radiator is similarly starved for steam do to and imbalance in the system.



Can you hear your air vents expelling air when the system is building steam? You should hear a gentle hiss but not any panting, panting may indicate pipe slope problems under the floor or in the basement. Replacing the air vents with Gorton D's might help because they are a faster vent. If you have a level, check that your radiators all slope towards the pipe feeding the radiator, that allows them to drain fully so steam can enter them easier. Steam will go where it's easiest so anything you can do to encourage it is helpful.





i don't think a larger radiator will help unless we can find a way to get the steam to what you have now. You might try adding a 1/4" shim under the side of the radiator that is opposite to the pipe feeding the radiator because that will put a positive slope on it. Don't try to lift the radiator, use a block and a 2X4 to lever it up gently. We don't want to break anything including your back.

Bob

ellentk

Question about Radiator Size

Thanks so much for all your good advice.  I'm going to have the building

superintendent change the valve and put the radiator on a slope.  And I'll ask the landlord to check out the system balance.

Ellen

BobC

They can get help too

On the radiator pipe in the bathroom that gets warm I assume that is the pipe that feeds that bathroom radiator? Make sure that vent is working is it a Gorton C, if so a D might help there as well.



Tell your landlord and building superintendent to ask any questions they might have here, we would be glad to share any knowledge we have.



Bob

ellentk

Question about Radiator Size

The steam pipe in the bathroom is vertical, floor to ceiling no valve or vent.  It may be part of one long pipe that goes from the basement to the top floor but I don't know. It's very common in older NYC bathrooms.

Here are links to similar ones:

http://www.houzz.com/Aluminum-and-Felt-Steam-Pipe-Cover

http://www.cityintherain.com/bathroom.html (third photo from top)



That pipe is always hotter than my radiators and I assume it's a direct line to the boiler, but I don't know the layout of the heating system. Does steam go from radiator to radiator or to each individually? I've also assumed the colder radiator was colder because it was last in the line, but I'm just guessing.  Can you enlighten me?



I'll be glad to pass along this site to my landlord and my supt. 



Thanks again for your help.



Ellen

BobC

Sloped pipe

Steam gets created in the boiler and then goes out to the steam mains, pipes branch off the mains and feed a radiator or sometimes a small group of radiators. For even heat you should vent the steam mains very fast and the radiators slowly. Radiators on lower floors near the steam main are usually vented very slow and the radiator venting rates increase as the radiator gets further away.



Your problem is either a venting balance issue or there is a badly sloped pipe feeding your radiators. If A pipe is not pitched right it will hold water and any steam that crosses that water will condense and not make it to the radiator unless it's a very long heating cycle.



Bob

ellentk

Question about Radiator Size

Thanks, Bob.  That makes sense.  I'm definitely showing this thread to my landlord and getting that Gorton D.

   You've been so very helpful to me and I appreciate it.

Ellen

Paul48

Help

http://www.gorton-valves.com/specify.htm Balancing or equalizing the system is a race,of sorts, and the radiators are the participants. The only difference is, in this race your goal is a tie. The exposed pipe in you bathroom is a riser feeding another radiator or radiators. If it's hot and your radiator stays cold, you aren't getting the steam that's available.