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Weil-McLain Ultra 155 piping

Working in flood ravaged Staten Island replacing boilers I got an Ultra to do. This is not direct replacement (different boiler than org.). My question, how important is it to have 1&1/4" as primary? Existing system has 1" feeds to secondary. To change these lines out will pose major repipe because tie in the secondary has all pulled tees and everything is close (would take entire day to rework). The Ultra 155 was sent because it's only boiler remotely close to what was there and it's slightly over sized.

Will 1" work? Even tappings S&R are 1" on ultra. I see the reasoning behind upsizing from instructions but reality is we can't get material or equipment down here like I would like.

Help!

Comments

  • billtwocase
    billtwocase Member Posts: 2,385
    firing?

    Is this a gas or oil boiler Robert?  If it can be downfired, that could help you out? 
  • Jean-David Beyer
    Jean-David Beyer Member Posts: 2,666
    Is this a gas or oil boiler

    The Ultras are gas fired and are modulating already, so there is no way to do downsizing of the firing rate. You do not want to oversize them. Putting in one that is only slightly larger than what was in there before is probably not the way to go. You really want to do an accurate heat loss calculation before putting in a mod-con.



    I would be concerned about not using the recommended pipe size for the boiler loop (these are supposed to be piped primary-secondary). W-M specify the size of the pipe for the primary (boiler) loop. How much repiping could that be? It is only about 3 feet long for my system. I have the 80 model, not the 155, and my installing contractor used 1 1/4 pipe even though the I&M manual said I needed only 1 inch because he said the larger size worked better.
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    The Ultra 155 was sent

    by whom?
  • Robert O'Connor_12
    Robert O'Connor_12 Member Posts: 728
    Ultra 155

    @ billtwocase, the Ultra is gas (or LP) only.

    @ Jean-David Beyer ,we ordered the correct equipment for this job. We are told the size we requested isn't available and it would be at least a week or two to get it. FEMA's calling the shots and we're to install whatever is sent. Most of these installs are temporary.Installing a boiler a day (somedays 2) every day 7 days a week we just don't have the resourses to do a manual J's. I have a short method that covers us just fine. Thanks for your reply.

    @ SWEI, General contractor (R**** R******). Don't wanna get jammed up. We are not in control of suppy chain. We order material & they get maybe 30% right. the rest we have to improvise

    I've posted pictures of many boilers I've installed on this site through the years and truely take great pride in the work I do. Unfortunately in this situation ya can't be to picky. This area looks like a third world country. I estimate at least 3500 homes in this small area alone are without heat & hot water. The block I worked on today (Foxbeach) I was told 8 people died. I'm doing the best I can to work with FEMA's people & their contractors but frankly their are just too many chief's and not enough Indians here. We tell them we don't have the correct equipment or material and we are told to "Put it in" in an effort to provide heat. At the end of the day if you need a 120K boiler & a 150 is sent, you put in the 150.

    Can anyone shed some insight on my original question? 

    Robert O'Connor/NJ
  • Robert O'Connor_12
    Robert O'Connor_12 Member Posts: 728
    Ultra 155

    @ billtwocase, the Ultra is gas (or LP) only.

    @ Jean-David Beyer ,we ordered the correct equipment for this job. We are told the size we requested isn't available and it would be at least a week or two to get it. FEMA's calling the shots and we're to install whatever is sent. Most of these installs are temporary.Installing a boiler a day (somedays 2) every day 7 days a week we just don't have the resourses to do a manual J's. I have a short method that covers us just fine. Thanks for your reply.

    @ SWEI, General contractor (R**** R******). Don't wanna get jammed up. We are not in control of suppy chain. We order material & they get maybe 30% right. the rest we have to improvise

    I've posted pictures of many boilers I've installed on this site through the years and truely take great pride in the work I do. Unfortunately in this situation ya can't be to picky. This area looks like a third world country. I estimate at least 3500 homes in this small area alone are without heat & hot water. The block I worked on today (Foxbeach) I was told 8 people died. I'm doing the best I can to work with FEMA's people & their contractors but frankly their are just too many chief's and not enough Indians here. We tell them we don't have the correct equipment or material and we are told to "Put it in" in an effort to provide heat. At the end of the day if you need a 120K boiler & a 150 is sent, you put in the 150.

    Can anyone shed some insight on my original question? 

    Robert O'Connor/NJ
  • Jean-David Beyer
    Jean-David Beyer Member Posts: 2,666
    the size we requested isn't available

    "We are told the size we requested isn't available and it would be at

    least a week or two to get it. FEMA's calling the shots and we're to

    install whatever is sent."



    That is a goddamned shame! To save a week or so up front, the poor homeowner will have to endure perhaps 20 years of continuing extra fuel costs, less comfortable heating, and possibly higher maintenance from excessive cycling.



    Some bureaucrats have their heads so far up their ... that they must contemplate the world through a glass navel.
  • TCT
    TCT Member Posts: 1
    Ultra 155 Piping

    According to Weil Mclain you can't pipe in 1"



    (• Ultra-80 / Ultra-105. . . . . . . . . . .use1”orlarger • Ultra-155/ Ultra-230. . . . . . . . . . .use11⁄4”orlarger • Ultra-299 / Ultra-399. . . . . . . . . . .use 11⁄2” or larger)



    Will it work probably, but that doesn't mean it's right!
  • billtwocase
    billtwocase Member Posts: 2,385
    oversized

    Jean, if that was you waiting for heat and hot water all this time, you are saying that you would rather freeze or prolong displacement for another week waiting for the "right" sized unit? These people want  their lives back. This wasn't a result of an energy audit done there. I'm sure  much worse going on there in the form of repairs and replacement. God speed to you Robert
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,853
    I think you'll be fine...

    First off, Thank You for being on the front lines of this devastating storm Robert. That has to be TOUGH duty... I know you are not alone (Mad Dog and N.Y Plumber is out and about there somewhere I am sure). Thank you all for toeing the line.



    The boiler will "right size" itself for the most part. These new appliances have the ability to realize the ACTUAL connected load, and not the theoretical load (pipe size) and will fire themselves accordingly. You might have some short cycle issues on the shoulder seasons, but who doesn't? Until we get approval of much deeper turn downs, we will ALL suffer short cycle issues.



    Even IF the load were to exceed the capacity of the 1" pipe, it (exposure time) is so short that it won't really make THAT much of a difference.



    Remember also that most Euro products assume a much bigger delta T with a lot smaller flow. In the real world, if we see a 7 to 10 degree differential, we are lucky. It has to do with real time loads, and the system being over pumped.



    Again, thanks for the hard work and putting up with ignorant government agents spending OUR money... (Don't get me started) like there is no tomorrow.



    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    Until we get approval of much deeper turn downs

    I'm curious - thought the 5:1 limitation most have was some kind of burner physics issue.
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,853
    My understanding...

    Is that it is more of an ANSI Standards recognition issue than a physical limitation. I am sure that some burners do have limitations, but in personally speaking with numerous chief engineers from large manufacturers, they tell me that with their equipment, it is possible to do a much greater reset than is currently allowed. They have successfully done it in the lab...



    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    higher turndown

    would be huge - hope they can thread the needle and get it to market.
  • Robert O'Connor_12
    Robert O'Connor_12 Member Posts: 728
    ULTRA 155

    @ Mark, thank you for your kind words, it really means allot. Got the Ultra up and running yesterday but got home last night real late and couldn't post (@ 9:30). Ultra lit right off great and it's working better than I thought it would. A bit of a challenge configuring/wiring especially when your sleepy). The existing system has 9 radiant zones, 1 baseboard loop, indirect & small snow melt. The original installer did fine job with initial install but his/her control strategy left me scratching my head at times. I didn't think 1" was going to be the end of the world & I do like to do things right but if you saw what I see everyday you just try to improvise and give people heat & just do the best you can given the field conditions. Thank you again, you calmed my fears!

    When ya coming back to Joisey? I need some more learnin' from the KING of the Mod Cons...

    Thanks to all who replied!

    Robert O'Connor/NJ
  • Jean-David Beyer
    Jean-David Beyer Member Posts: 2,666
    Jean, if that was you waiting for heat and hot water all this time,

    I really do not know. I had to wait 6 1/2 days for heat, hot water, and my electric stove. Also refrigerator and freezer did not work. No hardware problems except the power was out.



    It got pretty cold here (inside) after about two days. I really did not like it. But would I have put in an oversized boiler to suffer an additional 15 to 20 years of rapid cycling and a boiler that modulated down all the way when it is 14F below design temperature? Might as well not get a mod-con at all.



    My solution will be a little different. I am planning to get one of those natural gas powered backup generators in early 2013. Not now when everyone else is trying to get one. Also, no money left in 2012.



    Even those gas-powered generators will not really do. A neighbor of a friend of mine got one just before Sandy. They need maintenance every 100 hours of operation. Well, that is less than a week. Power was off about two weeks where my friend is (in New Jersey), so that was a big problem.
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