Disappearing water from glass gauge; Long shutdowns

Rayd

I just got my old boiler replaced 3 weeks ago. The old boiler was a Slant/Fin

GX-175, replaced because the old ball low water sensor failed and allowed the boiler to keep firing after all of the water had leaked out. The new boiler is a Crown BSI172SNPZZPSU. I've had various issues with this new boiler that I didn't have with the old one. One thing I noticed was that the old boiler had 2 or 3 of the tubes where the flames come out of underneath removed. Was this possibly done to reduce pressure? Or simply to reduce the Btu used?



First Problem: Whenever the boiler starts sending up steam, the water level in

the glass gauge starts to fluctuate up and down, except that it just keeps going

lower and lower until it gets so low that the low water sensor light comes on and shuts the boiler down. The boiler stops, the water comes back and fills the glass gauge again, and the boiler comes back on after the light goes off. At times, all of the water disappears from the glass gauge before the low water sensor light comes on and does its job. I do not have an automatic water filler. After installation, the plumber filled the boiler with water until the glass gauge was filled about 3/4. The low water light comes on when there is about 1 inch of water in the glass gauge. Is this normal? Is there too much pressure sending all of the water out? The water in the glass gauge of the old boiler fluctuated as well, but I never saw it drop all the way. I do get the steam hammer sound and sloshing in the pipes, but the old boiler did this as well, but not as bad. The water in the glass gauge has what looks like a little rust floating on top.



Second Problem: If the boiler does not shut off because of the low water sensor, it will shut off after being on for about 10 min or so, but does not come back on for a very long while, even though the thermostat in the dining room is calling for heat. I have noticed that if I tap on the PressureTrol Controller a few minutes after the boiler turns off, tapping it causes the boiler to come back on. Is this incorrectly set? After the boiler was installed, the plumber did not make any adjustments to anything at all. Since removal and installation took place on the same day(Saturday), he was quite eager to go home and testing consisted of simply turning on the boiler and checking if heat came up. Is the PressureTrol Controller something only the plumber should adjust? Or can I do it?



Right now, I cannot use the boiler. Yesterday, I noticed that the water in the glass gauge was down to the level that causes the low water sensor light to come on. I filled it, turned on the boiler and discovered that a pipe leading to the radiators in the front of the house developed a small hole where all of the steam and water was shooting out of, which I now have to get replaced. I'm wondering if the pressure of this new installation had anything to do with it, since this is primarily where the steam hammering was taking place, though much more stronger than with the old boiler.



Thanks to anyone that can offer any advice, ideas or suggestions regarding my issue.

Sil

post pics

while I am not a pro... many on here are... they will need pictures to see how it was installed.  Clearly an install issue...

A picture is 1000 words.

U can adjust the pressurtrol, but you have bigger issues...

Rod

Disappearing Water

Hi- Need to ask some questions:

At what is the maximum pressure does your boiler run now? (On a residential steam system It should never be higher than 2 PSI)

Was your Wet Return checked out and cleaned/renewed? 

Was your boiler skimmed?

Do you have a skim port piped in?

Could you post some pictures of your new boiler from different side so we can check out the piping configuration. Take the pictures from back a ways so the photos include the piping attached to the boiler. If we need detail we can zoom in.

- Rod

BobC

Replace pipe and skim boiler

I can't say why that pipe failed but you mentioned the old setup had  hammering as well so that pipe may have been about to go anyway. Installing a new boiler disturbs the piping as the old one is removed and the new installed; it really can't be helped and if it had to happen better in November than February.



When they replace that failed pipe get them to look at the piping to make sure everything is sloped correctly so water can find it's way back to the boiler and make sure the main air vent is big enough to handle all the air in the steam main. Also make sure there is a skim port and tell them you want the boiler skimmed after they replace the pipe. A boiler has to be skimmed when it is installed and after any major piping work to remove any oil that was on the new boiler and piping. Once it's skimmed the water level in the sight glass should not bounce much more than + / - 1/4 inch and the water should look pretty clean in the sight glass.



If there is a lot of crud in the water that pressuretrol might be getting plugged; it is needs to be removed and have the pigtail and the base of the pressuretrol cleaned out. The pressuretrol should be set so it cuts out at 1.5 to 2PSI (higher will waste fuel) and it should cut back in at 0.5PSI.



I would suggest you pickup a couple of the books offered under the "SHOP" menu so you can better understand your steam system. "We got Steam Heat" is good for a basic understanding of steam heat and "The Lost Art of Steam Heating" will give all the information your likely to need.



Bob

Rayd

Pics as requested

Hi all, and thanks for the quick reply. Here are some pics of my new boiler. As far as any work prior to the installation, the answer to that would be no. Nothing was done, nothing was checked prior to the installation. The contractor came first, got the btu numbers from my old boiler and used that as a reference to order the new boiler.



I do not know what the maximum pressure the boiler runs because it has not been stable from the start. Don't know what the wet return is or where it should be, which I would have asked if they had asked me about it or of its location prior to the install. No skim was done. Nothing. Was this supposed to be part of the new install? Or is this considered something separate? So again, nothing at all was done in preparation for the install, nor was anything done after, such as skimming or adjusting anything.



The plumber, after seeing the rust in the glass gauge, did recommend that I install a unit that would keep the water clean, although upon seeing it, perhaps he should have performed a cleaning, knowing the adverse effects it can have.

BobC

It's not piped right

If you look at page 14 of the installation manual it looks like the boiler was not installed per the manufacturers piping diagram and it's not going to work right the way it's piped right now. I don't see a steam header, an equalizer, or a hartford loop.  Modern boilers are VERY fussy about near boiler piping and I'm afraid that piping has to be redone per the piping diagram for it to work correctly.



Newly installed boilers HAVE TO BE SKIMMED to clean out the oils that always get introduced to a system with a new boiler or any new piping. My boiler is just over a month old and I'm still skimming the boiler (tonight was the 4th time), the water gets cleaner every time I do it. A skim port should be put on that boiler with a full port valve and a cap so it can be skimmed. Page 15 shows the location of the 1" skim tapping on the boiler



Bob

Enreynolds

So I know this plumber

Who has a collection of pristine unopened boiler installation manuals.  BobC is correct, this is not piped correctly.  I believe that the steam that is being produced by this boiler is the definition of wet steam.  It is no wonder you are having trouble keeping water in the boiler.  Hopefully you have not finished paying your installer.  Let us know where you hail from, or check out the find a contractor link above to find a pro to help you get this fixed.

nicholas bonham-carter

Choosing the correct size boiler

To add to your problems, you may not even have the proper size boiler, even though it has the same capacity as the old one.

The radiators should all be added together for their heat radiation vaue (edr), and the boiler size selected from that value of steam square feet.

Put the installer on notice that you have these problems, and then use a steam expert to guide you in getting this installation properly completed..--NBC

Rayd

Great Support!

A very big thank you to everyone that has taken the time to read my post and get involved. I hail from The Bronx in New York. The house was built in 1925 and was converted from oil to gas by the previous owner. It's a 2 story home with a basement. I will most definitely bring up the concerns suggested so far to the contractor from bullfrog builders that hired the plumber(P & B Plumbing)-(no return on google) who did my install. The books suggested by BobC are obviously a must and I can't wait to get my own copies!



Due to some of the responses posted, I would appreciate a little more help until I receive my books. I am providing some additional pictures of how the piping is set up for comment and/or suggestions. The pictures run from the boiler to the other end where the large radiator is.



The way I believe the wet return is set up is that it enters a rather large radiator in the basement from the top of the radiator, and exits from the bottom of the radiator. A long pipe from there goes back to the boiler. I don't see where a "Main Air Vent" is located, but I'm wondering if it's the silver looking valve in one of the pictures where the piping branches off. A friend at work mentioned that I should have an "Expansion Tank" somewhere by the boiler. I don't see one, anywhere. Also, I have only 6 radiators throughout the house, not including that giant one in the basement, and 3 poles with no radiator attached. Is my boiler too big?



The only thing I am unsure about is what should have been included with the install of the boiler and what I should have been charged for separately or in addition to the boiler install price.



Any help I can get will be truly appreciated.

crash2009

Wet Return

"The way I believe the wet return is set up is that it enters a rather large radiator in the basement from the top of the radiator, and exits from the bottom of the radiator. A long pipe from there goes back to the boiler."



That's a great observation.  Could be what killed the last boiler.  That radiator is probably plugged solid.  If it is the way you describe it, the radiator needs to be removed, the wet return cleaned out or replaced, and some way to flush the wet return needs to be installed.

gerry gill

Another boiler piped by someone who cant read.

You need to get another contractor.

Steve_175

Additional fixes

To add to what was stated (which are first priorities) You also need more/larger vents put on the return pipes near the boiler and after every thing is done insulate all the pipes.

Steamhead

I've seen these setups work well

for heating the basement... as long as it's full of water and doesn't leak, it's not a problem. 

Steamhead

Here's the piping diagram

for use in de-knuckleheading your installation.



Edit- once again it won't let me attach a PDF...... so here's a link to the manual online:



http://www.crownboiler.com/documents/bermuda_installation_manual_2012.pdf

BobC

What to expect

A lot depends on the language in the contract you signed but you can insist the installer pipe the boiler per the manual. Most manuals are very specific about the piping and warn of consequences if it's not done right.



If you did not specifically ask for it before signing, you might get charged extra for a skim port. But a short length of pipe, a valve and a cap is only $30 or so. Any installer who cared about his reputation would look for potential problems and let you know they had to be addressed. To slap a system together like that is unprofessional and reflects poorly on all the installers who do a great job every time.



The shot below is my new boiler and it's not perfect but it makes nice dry steam with no banging, all that piping no has insulation on it. The other shot is of the skimming port being utilized, you can see a slow trickle of water going into the bucket if you look closely.



Get your installer back and tell him you expect to see your boiler piped correctly or else you won't pay whatever is owed till it is piped correctly.



Bob

crash2009

Whoops!

  I had visions of the bottom of the radiator filled with sludge.  Preventing the return of condensate.  Steamhead, would it be possible that the return is plugged?

Steamhead

Could be

but given the time frame and the knuckleheaded near-boiler piping, I think the water is leaving with the steam.

Rayd

Low Water cutoff was to blame

Thanks for the insight. But the old boiler was still working perfectly well, sending up steam and heating my home very quickly, and the water level in the glass gauge barely moved. It wasn't until the old style of low water cutoff unit failed to shut off the boiler when water from that same unit leaked all out and allowed the boiler to burn up. When I woke up to go to work that morning, the house was filled with smoke, and when I checked on the boiler, the whole thing was glowing red. I am fortunate the gas line did not explode on me.

Rod

Info on Residential Steam heating

Hi- As others have mentioned, it is pretty obvious the person who did the install can't read and knows nothing about residential steam heating.

  While you are waiting for "the books", here are some links are to articles/videos that may be of help to you:



Video on the Importance of Boiler Piping Configuration

http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/107/Steam-Heating/118/Steam-boiler-near-boiler-piping



Replacing a Boiler Article

http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/236/For-Homeowners/1490/How-to-have-a-boiler-replaced-without-getting-steamed



Steam Heating Primer

http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/321/Steam-Heating-Basics/128/A-Steam-Heating-Primer



Boiler Ratings Explained

http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/364/Boilers/143/Boiler-Ratings-Explained



Importance of a Hartford Loop

http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/325/Piping/291/What-you-should-know-about-Hartford-Loops



I have also attached a diagram of a 1 pipe system with a single steam main as it might of help understanding the different terminology in the above articles.

- Rod

Rayd

Thanks To All!!! Thank you Dan Holohan!

I would like to thank everyone once again for taking the time to make comments and suggestions. It is very much appreciated. I just got the pipe that was leaking replaced and I once again have heat Unbelievable the amount of muscle alone it can take to get these old pipes removed.



I communicated the suggestions regarding the incorrect piping and the skimming that was supposed to have taken place, with the contractor that did the boiler install. He inspected the work after the boiler was installed. Shouldn't he have known the piping was done incorrectly? He will be coming over to discuss these issues with me this coming Friday. While I know that I will not pay for an initial skimming to be done, I will argue that since the piping was not done correctly as per the manufacturers instructions, I will see how far he goes to getting that done at little to no cost to me. I will gladly pay to have a skim port added though.



For the inexperienced such as myself, I consider you guys heroes in my book. I hope I can one day return the favor and help out another homeowner. But even if I cannot, it's nice to know I can refer someone to this website for help in the right direction! Thank you Dan Holohan. Who know's what my situation would be like at this moment had it not been for "THE WALL." At the rate things cost these days, the help I found here is invaluable!

nicholas bonham-carter

One more thought

As the pressure in the boiler rises, the water level in the returns will also rise to a point of equilibrium where it's weight will equal the pressure. In this case raising that return level requires filling that radiator, and the horizontal pipe connected to it-quite a volume of water. This hidden water comes back when the boiler cuts off.

What is the height of the radiator in relation to the height of the boiler waterline from the floor? Don't let him persuade you that an auto fill will solve this problem, as it will over fill.

No doubt the old boiler, unlike modern one contained much more water, or a higher waterline, and wasn't effected by this. The cure may be to install a vaporstat and run the boiler at 2 ounces., with massive main (not rad) venting.

Alternatively, raising the boiler a foot or so; or installing a false waterline.may be needed.--NBC