Silly me

Patrick Hutchinson

Old house, single-pipe sytem, works well.

I took off a radiator to sand the floor in one room, and yesterday was very cold so we turned on the sytem for the first time this winter.

Now the stop cock was screwed down tight, but a little steam was still coming out. So I decided to put the radiator back then and there. For whatever reason I also decided, having once reattached said radiator, to open the stopcock. Result water spewing out if the valve, and instant water hammer.



When is the best time to reopen that stopcock? When the furnace has turned off?

And where should I set the valve?



Sorry if this is a dumb question. Thanks.

Patrick

Rod

Radiator Problems

Hi-  Perhaps we need to get the terminology straight first. I'm presuming by "stopcock" you are referring to the inlet valve of the piping going into the radiator and by the term "valve " you are referring to the radiator vent mounted on the other end of the radiator from the piping and located about half way up the radiator? 

In setting up the radiator, use a carpenter's bubble level and make sure the radiator is very slightly sloped towards the piping end, just enough to "encourage"  the condensate (water) to leave the radiator and return to the boiler.  On a one pipe steam system the inlet valve should always be fully open otherwise the steam stream entering the radiator and the condensate leaving the radiator will collide and cause water hammer. While it shouldn't normally matter I would open all radiator inlet valves with the system off.

When you disconnected the radiator to do the floor has there been any changes done to the piping? Raised, lowered, lengthened etc.?  What is the make and model of the radiator vent? If adjustable, start it on a lower setting first and observe how that works out. If there are no problems you could then gradually increase the setting.

- Rod

Patrick Hutchinson

more...

Thanks Rod.

Sorry about the terminological confusion, and yes, you got what I meant.

No, no changes to the piping.

I'm

using Varivalves. A few years back I replaced the many and varied

valves (some of which had dials that spun without doing anything) and

installed wedges under the radiators (as you suggest here). The wedge on the

one I disconnected and reconnected I forgot to replace.

I will try opening the inlet valve fully when the system is not in use.

However,

when we got home from work today and turned up the thermostat, well.

once things got warmed up, I had water spurting out of an entirely

different radiator vent. That one didn't have a tilt to it either. But I don't understand why there would be water coming out. Is that condensate? Is there too much water in the tank?

Sorry, these are all beginners questions I know, and I appreciate your patience.

Patrick

Rod

Spitting Raditors

Hi Patrick-

  The vari valves could be your problem.  Their venting is very aggressive and unlike other radiator vents, they don't have float to stop water squirting out of them. Turn the vari valves down to their minimum setting and see how that works. Check all your radiators to see that the inlet valves are fully open and they have slope towards the inlet pipe. Quarters ($0.25) under the feet work well as shims

Could you tell us a little more about your steam system as that would help us understand better what could be causing the problems. What is the make and model of your boiler? This info can be found on the manufacturer's plate attached to your boiler. A picture of your boiler would help too. Take the picture from farther back so as to include the piping attached to the boiler.. If we need detail we can zoom in. When it is operating, what is the maximum pressure on your system? Residential steam systems operate at very low pressure so it should be no more than 2 PSI.

Don't worry about asking questions, that's how we all learn.

- Rod

Patrick Hutchinson

still more...

Rod,

I'll get to the photo on the weekend (being a bit of a Luddite and not having one of those cell-phone things).

In the meantime I closed down all the Varivalves and then opened them a hair. Already feel an improvement--hardly a sound from the rdiators, no spitting, heating further along the length of the very long radiators. Thanks.

As we haven't used the system since last winter, is it common practise/a good idea  to drain the boiler and refill it?

More later, thnks again.



Patrick

Rod

Radiator Venting

Hi Patrick - It sounds as though you're going in the right direction. The varivalve's minimum setting doesn't turn the varivalve off and at the minimum setting it is still fairly aggressive.

I just replied to another person's post who also has varivalves. the info on the post might be helpful to you also.

http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/143248/no-heat-in-one-upstairs-radiator 

When I first got into steam I tried out varivalves but they now collect dust on my spare parts shelf in the basement. They have their uses in individual situations but generally my feeling is they cause more problems than they cure.



I might mention that there are some very good books on residential steam heating in the Shop section of this website.  The one to start with is: "We Got Steam Heat!" It's written especially for the homeowner new to steam heating. It's easy reading and in a few nights of reading your knowledge of steam heating will be light years ahead. This book will save you money. The knowledge it gives you will pay for the book many times over.



Draining the boiler- If the water is really dirty you might want to drain and refill your boiler. It's also beneficial to flush out your wet return as being the lowest part of the piping any dirt /crud collects here.

   The big thing to remember is that when you add fresh water (even a small amount)  to your boiler always heat the boiler water to the boil (you don't have to make steam)  This drives off the dissolved oxygen in the "new" water. The dissolved oxygen can be very corrosive to your boiler and shorten the boiler's life span.

- Rod

nicholas bonham-carter

Spitting varivalves

You mentioned turning up the heat when you got home, which may have also exacerbated the problem. The fuel used to recover the desired temperature when you return home, may exceed the fuel saved by turning the thermostat down. Keep the temperature set at a constant setting, for best results.

Make sure that you can find the old radiator vents, as they were most likely still working, and. better suited to to slow venting which is needed on the rads.

Pay more attention to the main vents, and put on plenty.

Check your pressure, and make it low. Decide if you want basic function-sorta working, or quiet, economy with pressure well below 1psi.--NBC

Patrick Hutchinson

update

still no photos. I'm digesting Dan's We Got Steam Heat, and I have a couple of questions.

The insulation on my pipes is asbestos, and mostly in good shape. However there are some sketchy parts, especially where the pipes are supported by hangers. I read that one can wrap them in plastic: any more details on how to do this/what kind of plastic, and should I leave this to a pro with an industrial gasmask?



I suspect that I have no vents on the main lines; I'll take some photos this weekend.

Thanks again all.



Patrick

SWEI

asbestos

You need a respirator with N100/P100 filters like http://www.3m.com/product/information/P100-Particulate-Filter-Respirator.html



The best thing to do with existing asbestos is to encapsulate it.  Short and sweet version:  paint with a generous coat of alkyd (latex) paint.



Removal is more complex and dangerous in most cases.

Patrick Hutchinson

quick question

I now have a stack of pictures, but I'm not sure how to incorporate them into a message.

Do they need to be on a website?

(I should probably ask my 12-year old, right?)

Thanks,

Patrick

Rod

Posting Pictures

Hi- To add pictures to your post:

    1. They have to be in either jpg or pdf format.

    2. On your computer, put the pictures in a folder that you can find easily.

    3. Just below the area where write your post, look for the words "File Attachment".

        To the right of that there is a button lettered "Browse".

     4. Push that button and find the Folder on your computer where you placed the pictures you want to post and click on that file and select the individual picture you want to post.

    5. If you have more pictures to post select the button lettered:  "+ Add Another File"

and repeat the procedure listed in 4 above.

That's it!

- Rod

BobC

Photo's

When your posting a message you will see a "file attachment" box with a "Browse" button beside it. Just use the browse to get to the folder the photo's are in and click on the first one. To attach more photos use the 'Add Another File" option.



Photos have to be jpg types or else they will not post.



Bob

Patrick Hutchinson

Photos

Thanks, here goes.

The first picture is of the boiler; as you can see it sits next to the old coal-fired boiler, and the piping comes back through that.

The only vents I see are the one on the pipe top left of the boiler, and one (see Heat5.jpg) just before the pipe goes down into the old boiler. The first of those two looks incomplete?

I took a bunch of pictures of the insulation so you can advise how desperately I need to get it repaired.

Thanks,

Patrick

Patrick Hutchinson

Can you see?

I can see the pictures, can you see the pictures?

Mark N

Pictures

Does your main a loop around your basement? If it does the vent attached right above the old boiler is the main vent. Get a new one, I would try a Gorton #2. The one attached above the newer boiler looks to be a pressure relief valve. Why is the old boiler still there?

It also looks to be still connected to your system.

Patrick Hutchinson

more

Mark, hi

The old boiler is still there for no reason except that that's what we inherited. I assume whoever installed the new one thought it the easiest way to pipe it. It would appear to be a rather massive job to bypass it.

Any thoughts on that pressure relief valve? Does it appear to you to need replacing?

And is replacing the main vent with a Gorton #2 as easy as replacing a radiator vent?

Thanks to all.

Patrick

Mark N

Main Vents

Have you tried to remove the old vent? What size threads does it have? I would remove it add a street elbow a 6" nipple and put the new vent on that. I think a Gorton #2 is 1/2". That pressure relief valve looks old couldn't hurt to replace. A piece of cooper pipe should be threaded into it to vent it to the floor should it ever pop.

Patrick Hutchinson

say what?

Hi Mark,

slow down a bit.

a "street elbow" I get, but Googling "a 6" nipple" took me to some places I didn't really want to contemplate. I'll check the thread size; presumably the elbow would need threads the sames as the old valve, right? And the mysterious nipple goes where?

Sorry...

Patrick

Mark N

Fittings

Go to Pexsupply dot com. Click on fittings and go from there choose black. Screw the street elbow into where you took the old vent out of. Screw the nipple into the elbow, then the vent onto the nipple. Use teflon tape on the treads.

Patrick Hutchinson

orientation?

Does it matter whether it's a 45- or 90 -degree elbow?

I'm guessing that the air doesn't care about the orientation of the Gorton valve, as long as it's above the pipe, right?

Dave in QCA

Another option

First, i want to say that I find your system very interesting and if it were mine, I would be happy that both the original coal boiler and a newer, but also very old gas boiler were present.  My guess is at the time that the owner decided to install a gas boiler, he didn't want to give up the economy of coal, so he kept it.  If he was firing the coal it would do fine.  If he left for a winter vacation, the gas would take over.  Cool!



As for your main vent, it sure looks like a radiator vent with 1/8" threads.  Since you are indicated that you doubt your mechanical abilities, a simple way to improve your main venting is to replace that radiator vent installed as a main vent with the fastest radiator vent on the market, the Heat timer varivalve.  In the full open position it vents as fast as a Hoffman 75, faster than a Gorton 1, but about half of a Gorton #2.   Still, it would be MUCH more venting than you have now.  The Varivalve is inexpensive, but does not have any float function in it, but that should not present a problem.  They also tend to spit a little bit, while a problem in a room with a hardwood floor, is not such a big deal in the basement.

Patrick Hutchinson

Thanks

Dave,

I'll check the thread size and that will determine what I do next, as I don't think I could cut a new thread for a 1/2" fitting. And I have a spare Varivalve in the junk drawer!

I'm trying to remember Dan's advice on pressure (in Got Steam Heat?); if you look at the 4th picture, the Cut-In is set at 1 lb, and the Differential at 2 lb. Should I change the settings?

Thanks again for the patience.

Patrick

Dave in QCA

Lower

I think I would set the differential at 1.  Actually, if I were working on it I would set the cut in lower too, but if you get lower than the functional range (not the scale on the side of the control), it will not cut in.  Your device is old and may be more precise than the newer models which are pretty sloppy. 

The main thing you want to achieve to a maximum operating pressure of 2 psi.  Residential systems should not exceed that.  And, if you're lucky, the pressure will be too low to register most of the time and the pressure limit control will never have to function.

Patrick Hutchinson

pressure

I set the Differential to 1.

I realize that I don't really know what (or where) the pressure dial in the 4th picture is reading.

Right now it's up to 10. What should the highest reading I should expect be?

Worried in Smithfield...

Dave in QCA

--- 2 ---

You should not have a pressure higher than 2 psi.  It sounds as though your pressuretrol is not working.  The picture as shown on this post indicates 0 pressure, so I would say gauge appears to be working.   The pressuretrol is supposed shut of the burner and limit how high the pressure gets.



Or... I guess I should have you clarify.  There are TWO 10s on your dial.  Which one is it indicating?  The numbers to the left are vacuum in inches of mercury.  The numbers to the right are pressure in pounds per sq inch.

Patrick Hutchinson

pressure

Right now the burner's off and it's at +5 and dropping. The thermostat is set to 60 degrees, and the burner shut off before it reached that. The radiators are heating, though not all the way across, and there's no projectile spitting from the one that was misbehaving.



By the way, the photo was taken when the system was off.



I must admit I've never been down in the basement monitoring that gauge when the burner ws on, so I can't say if it's a consequence of me fiddling with the settings.

Mark N

Elbow

You would need a 90 degree elbow.

Patrick Hutchinson

update

I couldn't see the water level in the glass, so I drained off about 3 gallons of water until I could see the level at the correct place (system was off). And I set the Differential to 1 1/2. System is working fine now, except that the gauge is reading 15 pounds of pressure. Wouldn't there be steam screaming out of all the radiator vents at this pressure? The gauge doesn't by any chance measure in tenths of a pound does it (joke)? So does this mean that the Pressuretrol is not working, or that the gauge is not working?

Thanks all.