Oversized Boiler?

SteamGirl

We bought our old house 5 years ago and along with it came steam heat.  I had never experienced steam heat before and so  bought Dan's books which gave me many evenings of interesting and enlightening bedtime reading.  My husband began to worry that I knew far too much about a heating system than any normal housewife should but I found it all fascinating.  We had an oil boiler and our oil bills were very expensive so we started to save up for a 'conversion to gas' project.  Fast forward five years until we finally had the funds and I started the search to find the right engineers to do the job.  I did my math, noted my rads edr and worked out my required BTU input for the new boiler.  I had a total of 80,000 BTU's for the ten radiators and we also have one room that has a hot water zone so added in the 12,000 BTU's for there.  I then added in the piping pick up rate and concluded we needed a new boiler around 140,000BTU's.  We also wanted to go with a tankless water heater.

I had 3 seperate heating companies round to size up and quote for the job.  They all came up with a similar size boiler suggestions 140,000-150,000 range. 

We carefully chose our heating engineer and agreed with him to install a Weil McLain eg45 150,000BTU boiler. Finally last week the day came to start the job and I must say I was happy to see my 40 year old oil boiler finally be removed and sent to the boiler retirement home.  Sometime later in the day after the new boiler had been delivered and installment commenced the engineer came to check in with us to say 'all was going well but unfortunately the boiler we wanted was not in stock and so he had had to go with the next size up'.which would have been the eg50 175,000BTU.  I expressed concern about the increased running costs of a larger boiler together with would it be oversized. He reassured me that all would be fine.  A couple of hours later once the crew had finished for the day we went to the basement, looked at the boiler and discovered it was actually the EG55 200,000BTU boiler that was being installed!  I called the engineer and requested he come straight out to talk to us.  I know from reading Dan's books that an oversized boiler can lead to all kinds of problems and relayed all of this to the engineer and told him we were very unhappy with the situation and that we would not have agreed to a 200,000BTU sized boiler had we been informed. He then went on to say that he was actually more concerned that his original plan of installing the EG45 would have been too small and that he didn't think that the EG55 would be a problem or oversized.  Why then did all 3 companies that gave us estimates for the job all recommend boilers in the 140,000-150,000 BTU range.  He said we should not worry and that with the hot water zone and the tankless water heater drawing on the boiler he felt it would operate without issue, and so we should 'see how it goes'. 

Well of course it goes without saying that we are experiencing problems.  This boiler is producing 521Sq Ft of steam per hour (as opposed to 392sq ft that the EG45 would have produced) and the required amount by our radiators is actually 332sq ft. We are being woken up at 530am every morning to radiators vent sounds that I can only  liken to being in a wind tunnel and not something you can sleep through.  I called the engineer and told him this.  He sent out one of his guys who changed every radiator vent to an adjustible ventrite and set them all on #4, he said it would just be a matter of balancing the system.   Even set on #4 the rads are still sounding like tea kettles going crazy- if we turn them down to #2 or 3 then the radiator takes over an hour to heat up and some of them become so pressurized that the inlet valve is spitting water angrily onto the floor.  I suspect that the steam load is so large that the main vents cannot cope with velocity of the steam and clear the air fast enough thus leaving the radiators to vent too quickly which they aren't able to keep up with. We are at the end of our tether, when the heating is on we run around the house adjusting vents trying to stop the hissing but nothing is working.

My question is, do you agree that the boiler is oversized for the required load?  Do we demand that he replace the new boiler with the correctly sized one we had originally agreed upon?  Should he install more main vents at his expense? 

It is such a disappointment after waiting so long for this project......what to do next?? Any help is greatly appreciated.

JStar

Steam

Oh boy! Yes, that is GROSSLY oversized. You shouln't have even added the baseboard into the boiler size. Just make sure that the baseboard zone is no larger than the pick-up factor. What was the EDR of the radiators?



Get that boiler out, and get a FULL refund. I would not let that company back into your house.

SteamGirl

oversized boiler:(

My radiators are 332 square feet of EDR. 

It is such a shame, the near boiler piping looks very good and I am happy with the job the installation crew did but feel this has all been ruined by an oversized boiler.  I would have definately just waited the extra week or two for the correct boiler to come in stock but was not given the choice.  I have not paid him his 2nd portion of the bill that was due upon completion as yet, although he has sent us a bill for it. 

I think I will have to give him the option of replacing it with the correct sized boiler or refusing payment.  This is all very stressful, I am not looking forward to having that conversation:(

JStar

Steam

It's very unfortunate. It sounds like you did your research, but just had a bad experience. Sometimes, you just can't plan for somebody else's bad decision. It just blows my mind that somebody would even do that to a customer.

crash2009

I have the same boiler hooked up to 377 EDR

  While I empathize with you about the dishonesty of your contractor, (you might want to have your contract reviewed by a lawyer) an oversized boiler is not the end of the world.  There are a few little tricks that will help you co-exist with your oversized boiler until you resolve the issue with your contractor.

I think I can help you with the 5am problem, of course I am just guessing, but it is an educated guess based upon my own personal experience.  Oversized boilers and night time setbacks do not get along well together.  Reduce or eliminate the night time setback feature on your thermostat.  Set the thermostat to be the same temperature 24 hours a day. 

conversiontime

any signed contract?

Definitely do not pay the balance until he makes it right. A signed contract that specifies the boiler size is ideal but the conversation or bid can also be binding. I would tell him on the phone or in person to replace to correct size then expect payment. You did your research and I'm sure are paying a decent amount for this work so you deserve, and should expect, the correct sized boiler.

icesailor

New Boiler:

What were they thinking?

Did they get a "deal" on that over-sized boiler?

Why in the name of whom ever, in this day of energy savings, would any "professional" install a standing pilot boiler? I thought they were now illegal to install. Was this a deal or leftover from some supply house?

This type of activity gives us all a bad name.

Did they do all the steam supply piping in copper tube and fittings?

You did all the homework and someone ignored you, Most women would be BS over this. I know that my wife would be. And I wouldn't want to be receiving her wrath if the system isn't working properly. You are now stuck with a mess. Sadly.

SteamGirl

contract

Fortunately we do have a signed contract that states an installation of the EG45 so feel confident that we are legally covered.

SteamGirl

standing pilot burner

it doesn't have a standing pilot burner it has an electronic ignition.  The steam supply piping is all steel and looks very good.  I'm not worried about the quality of the crew's install, just the company owner's receipt and install of the oversized boiler. I feel it probably was a 'deal' from the supplier. I shall take a photograph tomorrow morning of the boiler and piping and post it. 

Yes I am beyond upset about this and think I will have to get forceful.  I think he is embarrassed to admit his mistake, he knows that it will be costly for him to have to pay for another boiler, the crew's time for the install and for the electrician etc.  It really is a nightmare all round. 

SteamGirl

eliminating set back

The problem with eliminating the set back and putting the thermostat on 'hold' is that the system will only ever kick in for a short amount of time to maintain the set temp, which will mean that it won't run long enough to heat the upstairs radiators.  I have it set to hold during the daytime and know that it keeps the room with the thermostat comfortable but the rest of the house is cold.  I shall give it a try tonight though to see if it is a temporary help until we get a new boiler. 

Rod

Oversized Boiler

Hi- I'm sorry to hear that you are having problems especially as it would seem you have done your research very well. 

   The EG 55 is way oversized and being so, will be a big waste of fuel. The boiler output (with pickup factor, needs to reasonably  match to the total EDR of the radiators. You probably could have even got away with the EG 40 as it is very close to your total EDR of 332 sq.ft.. Keep in mind a 1.33 pickup factor is already included and this would take care of the HW zone.  Going with the EG 45 gives you a little bit more than you need but is close enough so things should be fine.  I would tell him that you contracted for the EG 45 and that’s what you want!



    You may already have this but here is a link to the Weil Mclain EG Brochure which has a table on the second page so that can the different boiler sizes can be compared.

http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/assets/pdf/EG%20Sales%20Flyer%200912.pdf

    I ‘ve also attached of blow up of the same table and have marked the different size boilers involved. I thought it might help you explain your concerns.



I could see where a pro not familiar with steam might go up a size, but two sizes is a bit ridiculous.   He obviously doesn’t run into steam knowledgeable homeowners very often.

Good Luck!

- Rod

nicholas bonham-carter

Nightmare install

If you have the installation manual for your boiler, you will probably see that the manufacturer emphasizes the importance of boiler sizing to the radiation, (at least in my peerless boiler manual did). Various other requirements are there also, such as venting information, and lastly, but not leastly, the need for cleaning the boiler after installation to get all the oils out (see skimming).

Did they at least look at the main venting? Even more main venting is needed with an oversized boiler, or all the air being expelled so forcibly will carry up the condensate through your radiator vents, and will increase the water-hammer, and spitting. What pressure have they set on the pressuretrol-too high I am guessing.

In the contract, was there any mention of following the installation instructions?

Can you get the manufacturers rep in to look at the boiler, and agree that the sizing is wrong?

Good luck with this, and congratulations on being able to absorb all this information so effectively!--NBC

icesailor

Supply House "Experts"

Unless you live in an area with a lot of steam boilers, and the supply house sells a lot of steam sales, someone might suggest that the bigger boiler would work fine. It would on a forced hot water system. Just not on a steam system.

Behind my back, I know that I am considered an a$$hat at the supply house I use. Whenever I ask a question about something I need and don't understand, I get an answer that I will still check. They were often wrong. I have ordered things and had them come different than what I had ordered because someone decided that it would work as well. It didn't.

My greatest fear is my getting caught in a situation like yours. I'm a terrible liar and you would know it.

I don't know if your "engineer" is really one and Registered Professional Engineer and has training in mechanical systems, but someone should have known that the IBR rating of the boiler already had that 1.3 allowance for piping and pick-up. That alone will add to the oversizing of the boiler but will seldom cause a noticeable problem.

Standing Pilot:

I don't know where I picked up the standing pilot part from your post but when I went to the Weil-McLain website to locate your boiler, it only showed a standing pilot. Not everyone is aware that you aren't supposed to use them and you are allowed to get rid of stock that have them. You are NOT supposed to use them on LP but I see Nat. Gas boilers with standing pilots converted to LP on a regular basis where I work. I was just researching your boiler circumstances for you. I was wondering why someone would use a boiler that is so over sized as the one installed. You can loose a job over $100.00 so why put in a more expensive boiler unless someone got a really good deal on it. No one got a deal on that boiler. You and the installer. But the boiler provider moved some dead stock out of inventory.

SteamGirl

supply house 'expert'

I totally agree that he was talked into the boiler by the supply house 'expert'.  He didn't have what my engineer wanted so sold him what he did have instead 9probably at a knock down price)  good for him very bad for me.  When I expressed my concern over the oversized boiler my engineer actually gave me the supply house 'experts' number and told me to talk to him and he would reassure me that this boiler was ok. So I did call the supply guy and it was like talking to a used car saleman.  He didn't let me get a word in, kept talking about the pick up factor, heating the house on the coldest day of the year, having the tankless water heater calling on the boiler and stopping it from heating the house if not big enough.. blah blah blah. I didn't agree with anything he said and told my engineer this who looked very sheepish, I think he knew at that point he had made a mistake.

SteamGirl

pick up factor included

Thanks Rod for this info.  I did  not know that the Weil McLain boilers already include the 1.33 steam pick up factor - but I would have hoped that my engineer, who states that he likes uses this brand of boiler as his first choice, would have known this.

I have printed off the brochure you sent me and will use this when I speak with the engineer.

Considering our motivation for this project was to lower our fuel bills it is a nightmare that we now have a such an oversized boiler that we will make no such savings.

SteamGirl

Watch this space

I have emailed a PDF letter to the engineer today requesting that he replace this boiler with the correct sized boiler (as agreed upon in the contract) and stated that payment will accompany a satisfactory install.....so watch this space and I will update.

Thank you all so much for your very helpful feedback

SteamGirl

Update on Oversized Boiler - Installer wants to reduce BTU Input

Hi,

Well it's almost two months later and we still don't have the oversized boiler replaced with the EG45 (as per our contract). As we suspected the installer replaced the main vents with larger ones in an attempt to address the noisy steam radiator vents, he installed a vaporstat and also re skimmed the boiler. We still insisted that he is just attending to the 'symptoms' of the oversized boiler and not just tackling the cause. We are still having to pay fuel costs for a boiler that is 2 sizes too large and still dealing with noisy vents. We have sent 2 PDF letters formally instructing him to replace the boiler. He came to the house with the Weil McLain rep who when pushed admitted that 'on paper yes it is oversized' but he said we can address this by downfiring instead of replacing it. From what I have read on reducing the BTU input of steam boilers there seems to be a lot of 'cons'. Common sense tells me that by reducing the BTU input, but NOT the number of sections or the gallons of water that requiring heating up, then the boiler is just going to take longer to produce steam which will be highly energy inefficient.

Can you please give me your opinions on reducing the BTU input of the boiler and whether we should continue to push for the replacement with the correctly sized EG45 boiler.

Thanks in advance!



Basic facts - our systems required EDR is 332 sq ft

Agreed contract boiler - Weil McLain EG45 (rated 396 sq ft of steam)

Actual boiler installed (without prior agreement) - EG55 (rated 521 sq ft of steam)

JStar

Steam

You are right about the sizing. Down-firing is incredibly inefficient, and sometimes dangerous, both to you and the boiler. Don't do it. There is a reason why boilers come in multiple sizes.

SWEI

if they're going to have to eat this

offer them an olive branch by accepting a less expensive EG-40 instead.

The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

Downfiring not allowed

That amount of down firing is prohibited by Weil Mclain when I have spoken to them about grossly over sized EG/EGH boilers.   I'd say "NO WAY".  They had every opportunity to do it right and are just doing whatever they can to not eat the cost of a mistake.   For me, one of the best gages of the integrity of a company (or individual for that matter) is how they react when they make a mistake.  While they shouldn't happen, they always will as long as human beings are involved.

Rod

Oversized Boiler

Hi- I'm sorry to hear that your oversized boiler problem hasn't been resolved but am glad to hear you have what sounds like a fairly solid contract. You're right on the mark with your thinking that downfiring, without reducing the boiler sections, is detrimental to the efficiency. As to safety I can't comment on that as it's beyond my area of expertise (I'm a homeowner and not a steampro) however, if it was my boiler, from what I have read, I'd be concerned.

    Dave Bunnell, The Steam Whisperer, and other steam pros who have replied to your post have advised against downfiring. I would heed their advice and demand that the oversized boiler be replaced.



As for the rep. - You have to understand that he is trying to help “the customer” out and unfortunately the contractor is “the customer”and NOT you! You only buy one boiler every 10 to 15 years where as the contractor buys numerous boilers per year. It may be that the rep, in his effort to ingratiate himself with the contractor, is misleading the contractor to think that down firing a boiler that size, by the amount necessary, is practical. It could even be that the rep isn't that knowledgeable about downfiring and being ignorant, is acting in good faith.



If the rep absolutely insists it can be down fired, I'd demand a letter signed by a Weil McLain company officer saying exactly how much (input BTUs) that model boiler (the oversized one) can be safely downfired and guaranteeing that the downfired boiler would match the efficiency of the boiler specified in the original contract. As the manufacturer is very unlikely to give you such a letter, that makes the rep's claim rather invalid and hopefully things will then move on to a proper solution, replacing the oversized boiler with one of the correct size.





   SWEI made a good comment about replacing the over sized boiler with the EG40. You might want to consider this as it may be a more practical solution for both you and the contractor. The EG-40 (325 sq. ft of steam) is very close to your EDR of 332. Keep in mind that the EG40 is actually putting out 432 sq.ft. of steam (325 x 1.33 (“pickup factor”= 432 sq.ft of steam.) so there is an extra “fudge factor” built in. If you are still worried about the EG40 being a little undersized, you might want to read this article by Dave Bunnell, who is a very experienced Chicago steampro.

http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/323/Boilers/1551/Taking-Another-Look-at-Steam-Boiler-Sizing-Methods-by-Dave-Boilerpro-Bunnell

  Good luck with getting this resolved and keep in mind that the “Squeaky wheel gets the grease!” so stand fast and demand that the oversized boiler be replaced. Be sure to let us know how it turns out.

- Rod









.

SteamGirl

A Happy Conclusion:)

Hi All,

Just a quick note to let you know that all ended well with my oversized steam boiler.

The heating engineer finally agreed to replace the EG55 with the smaller EG45.  The replacement was installed 3 weeks ago now and I am very happy to say that it is working beautifully. I couldn't believe just how much smaller dimensionally the new boiler was. We have no more whistling vents and the whole house gets toasty and evenly warm within 20 minutes.

I want to thank you all for your advice, I wouldn't have had the confidence to dig my heels in without it.  I'm so happy to have this finally concluded and I'm loving my steam heat:)

Kelly

Hap_Hazzard

They'll all be happy to hear that.

Aren't these guys great? They bust their humps all day helping their customers get the most out of their heating budgets, then they come here and share what they know with folks like us for free. They are the best!



I'm glad you prevailed.

Dave in QCA

Excellent!

Congratulations on being able to resolve this correctly.  The proof in the end is that your properly sized boiler is functioning the way it should.