Peerless Purefire wil not run on generator power

Branded

I have two Peerless PureFire boilers that heat my home and hot water.  During Hurricane Sandy we lost power.  A portable generator provided power for pumps, lights, refrigerators, and even a Plasma TV.....but not the boilers.  They did not like the power being provided by the generator and would not run.  There were multiple Blocking error codes (#255 occurred the most often).  Is Peerless aware of this, and does anyone have a solution?  I am researching using an "0n-line UPS to power the boilers, however this may not solve the problem.  Any help is appreciated. 

TonyS

Make sure your UPS is a

"continuous" with a pure sine wave. They are expensive and you are probable better off buying a small honda inverter generator just for the boiler.

SWEI

an alternative

A power conditioner will often allow the boiler controls to function when running on a genset.  The glorified power strips sold in computer and hifi departments will not work.  Cleaning up a low frequency sine wave requires many pounds of iron and copper - small ones (under 200W) weigh in at about 5 pounds -- it takes about 80 pounds to handle a fully loaded 20A circuit.

Branded

Some Progress

Thanks to Dan, I was contacted by Peerless today and they suggested that I try to ground the neutral on the boilers.  Not sure if it will work but it is worth a try.

I was a commercial/industrial contractor for 25 years and I remember when the Fireye E100 flame monitor control first came out there were similar power problems, and grounding the neutral sometimes resolved them.

I just didn't think of trying that here.  If that doesn't work, I agree that the answer may be an inverter generator for the boilers. 

SWEI

grounding the neutral

Are they actually advising you to connect the neutral (white) wire to the case of the boiler?

Paul48

I

was wondering about the floating neutral of a generator, and if that had something to do with what we're seeing. I read somewhere that all close-coupled generators produce a true sine-wave, and the frequency can vary based on engine rpm. I can't argue the point, and am only parroting what I read.I can say that ground problems will produce very strange behavior with electronics.

SWEI

grounding and bonding

Generators ship with a bond between neutral and ground, and standard transfer switches assume this.  There are special cases where a separate, switched neutral is needed --  but they are not particularly common.



I'm still curious what Peerless has advised him to do.  Connecting green and white wires together inside any building is a VERY BAD IDEA.

Branded

Up-date

They did suggest grounding the neutral on the boilers.  Unfortunately, this did not resolve the problem and I removed the temporary ground.  I know that the neutral is only supposed to be grounded in the panel. 

I think the two boilers with one circulating pump running on each draws about 5 amps or about 600 watts.  An on-line UPS that can handle 1000 watts may be the best cost option (if it will work!). 

SWEI

UPS power

Most UPSes that cost under $5k produce so-called modified sinewave outputs that should properly be referred to as a modified squarewave.  This does not present issues for most switch-mode power supplies (like you see in modern electronics) but can wreak havoc with low cost linear designs that lack proper input filtering.



Have you tried using another genset?

Paul48

Unfortunately

Most of the homeowners that are trying to use a generator now, have no idea what a transfer switch is.

SWEI

transfer switch

Good point (yikes.)



Interlocking breakers on the main panel is usually cheaper and will do the job for occasional outages.  We try arrange this whenever we can for residential and light commercial jobs.  http://www.interlockkit.com/ has a lot of good info - parts are available from any electric supply, but few actually stock them.

TonyS

tranfer switch

Here is a you tube video it will lead you to more links on generators and ideas

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFfLj1iyDJM&feature=related

Branded

Transfer Switch

I have a Reliance 10 circuit Manual Power transfer switch so back-feeding the main is not a concern. 

My generator is a Generac GP5500.  I tried my friends Honda EM6500SX.  It has  more advance voltage regulating circitry than the Generac, but unfortunately the results were the same - blocking error #255. 

I sometimes can get one boiler to run if I turn off all other loads on the transfer switch and limit the boiler controls to heating just one zone.  We have nine zones plus DHW so this is not a practical solution.  The reason I believe one boiler will sometimes run in this configuration is because the generator voltage must be cleaner when just at idle.  The second something else is turned on, the control locks out. 

It is almost time to give up the good fight and head for a hotel!

GAS

Similar Situation Here

I also have a Peerless Purefire for residential use (2 zone).  I've tried two different generators with the same result (the boiler and pumps power on, but the boiler fails to go through a normal cycle, if at all).

I've disconnected the entire system from my panel and connected it directly to the generator (ground/neutral bond intact) using an extention cord with the female end cut off. 

I have gotten it to work by carefully adjusting the RPMs on the generator, but the boiler is very sensitive to changes. Blocking code 255 if RPMs too low; Net Frequency Error Message also. Post-ignition purge fan will "trip" the computer into standby mode.  Lots of fluctuations in temperature readings (supply reading 14F and then 84F or whatever the actual reading is and corresponds to the analog temperature gauge).

Switching the zone cirulator pumps off works sometimes too. 

I'm expecting a puresine inverter delivery today.  I'll post back with the results of that experiment.

BTW - everything else (washing machine, dryer, tv, PS3, computers, etc) all work normally - so it's not the generator.  The PureFire is most definitely not designed for anything except perfect line power.

SWEI

if it's a frequency error

It's almost a switch-mode power supply with an overly cautious error threshold on the incoming line frequency.  A tolerance of +/- 1 Hz or even less is not uncommon.  Inexpensive gensets are notorious for frequency stability issues - I see them wander between about 58 and 62 Hz most of the time.



The first thing a switcher does is rectify the AC to DC, so the line

frequency doesn't actually matter much at all.  The input filter is

tuned for 60 Hz, but would not likely lose much of its usefulness until the

frequency dropped below about 40 Hz.

Branded

Update 11-16

So after additional research, I now know that Peerless uses Hertz for the internal clock in the control module.  Control modules from maybe two to four years ago were designed with a tolerance of only about +/- 2%.  Anything outside of that will cause a blocking error.  Improper hertz, means the wrong time, means ignition sequences, etc are off, which means you get a blocking error.

There is a possible solution!  Today I received a new control module from Peerless that has been redesigned with a new tolerance of about 40 to 70 hertz.  It may be a slightly different than that, however it is much greater than my original board. 

Since I now have power back (my kids thank Super Storm Sandy for 2 weeks off from school!) I will pull out the generator tomorrow, install the new board, and see what the results are..

.....my lights just went off and back on twice - give me a break!

Branded

The results

I put the new control modules in this morning and then tested them with the house back on generator power.  At idle, and at full load, the boilers ran perfectly.  No errors at all!  The boards appear to work. 

So, if you are having a problem running your Purefire boiler(s) off of a generator, you can try adjusting the hertz (rpm adjustment on the generator), or you can try running the boiler off of an inverter generator, or you may want to look into up-grading your control module on the boiler. One of these options should work.

I want to thank Peerless for their support and very quick response. they were extremely helpful.  I also want to thank everyone who provided feedback on the Wall.

GenPower

Peerless Contact help ...

I had the same problem last October (2011) when MA got hit with the ice storm. The strange thing is for the first two days my furnace ran fine off my old 1990's vintage generator. However that generator died two days into a weeklong power outage. I was lucky enough to find a Briggs & Stratton to fill the gap but with the new generator the boiler would not fire unless I but just the right load on the generator.

The Briggs was not a great generator,  I did a lot of research on the gas generators and found Yamaha probably had one of the tightest spec but at close two 2K for 4K Watts I went with a Generac XG7000 I know it wasn't perfectly clean but was hoping it would be close enough, but it isn't it's running around 62.5 Hrz . Worst case I would use a Tripp Lite SMARTONLINE™ Series UPS to clean the power.

However I would truly like to get the "new" control module you were talking about, but I have had terrible luck try to communicate with Peerless. Can you point me in the right direction? (So far not so happy with my Peerless Decision)

Greatly appreciated

ttekushan_3

Neutral to Ground Connection

In revisiting the subject of tying the Neutral to Ground, I had a situation where I dealt with a neutral that tended to float with respect to a grounded box. I wasn't in a position to rectify the problem at the source but I figured tying them directly could get the entire system's neutral to ground through my feeble wiring under the right (wrong?) conditions. Not good!



So I took a heavy male plug end and mounted a panel-mount 3AG fuse holder where the cord should come out. The N and G were connected internally, fused at 10A. plugged it into an outlet on the same box and was good to go.



It was weird coming in on a Monday morning to find the fuse blown with no connected load on my end. Therefore, I agree that one should never wire the N to G anywhere other than the panel.

Branded

Peerless parts

I went through a local distributor in NJ.  Whatever suppliers carry Peerless boilers will also carry parts.  Word of warning - the control module is not cheap!

Bertman

starting surge for burner

Glad the new circuitry seems to have fixed the problem.  One thing I noticed is i did not see anyone mention surge.  My old Becket fires fine with my 1999 series Generac SE5000 6250 surge. My neighbor switched to a Buderus with a Riello

burner and his Home Depot 5500 watt generator with a yahmaha engine would not fire the burner.  After much testing we discovered that 1. if he shuts off all other circuits either generator will start the burner.   2. A lager 7500 watt generac will start it no problem no matter what conditions.   The surge to start the burner I beleive is underestimated, it may also be that the surge is deleived slightly slower than line power.