Rinsing the boiler

ChrisJ

So, I'm going to be honest at this point I have no clue what I'm doing.

Wre finally got power back after Sandy last night and the system did a 12 degree recovery.  After this it fired back up one more time as things started to cool again and I got some water hammer in a pipe.  Ever since this I keep getting hammer every time the system starts up.  While this is going on, if you sit in our downstairs bathroom listenig to the radiator it huffs and puffs a lot and you hear boiling / girgling in the pipe below the floor.



I have no idea why,  I realize the two take offs in this area have no insulation in a crawl space and really should, but it went all winter last year with zero problems.  Sandy was pretty bad here, but I don't think the house moved. :)

Right now I am draining the boiler and I'm going to rinse it out the best I can as the water was pretty stinky and dirty.  Honestly it still smells like the old boiler did so maybe the long run time just washed more crap down, I don't know.  I didn't notice any oil or residue in the gauge glass this morning so I doubt it needs skimmimg, but maybe I'll do that as well.

Enreynolds

Chris

It sounds like you may have hit it on the head with the dirty boiler water.  That would get you some wet steam.  Consider this.  Typically your uninsulated pipes in the crawlspace would keep that area warm.  With the 12 degree recovery you experienced, which scoured your old pipes and radiators clean (and dirtied the water), your house warmed up, but I am sure the crawlspace has not come up to its normal temp, making those pipes abnormally cool.  Compound this with wet steam, and you have a puddle waiting to happen.  I think that after you clean out the boiler, you will see your hammer go away.  It might also pay to bite the bullet and insulate those take offs.  Keep us apprised of your progress.  And by the way, glad to hear you weathered the storm and are back up and running (limping?) along.

crash2009

I was wondering

 when you were going to "surface".  You guys got hit hard.



If you are asking how to flush the boiler or system, you should be able to do that easy with the Kings and Hartford valves you installed last year.



I don't remember where you plumbed the boiler fill.  Its either on the boiler side of the Hartford or on the wet return side.  If it's on the boiler side, just close the Hartford valve, open the boiler fill valve and run a drain hose over to the new sump pump.



To flush the system, leave the Hartford valve closed, remove a main vent. attach a garden hose from a water supply to the main vent hole.  Run the water through and drain to the sump pump.  Hopefully you installed a drain valve close to the Hartford valve.



Here is a link to how I do mine,  you might have to adjust the directions if your boiler fill is plumbed into the boiler side of the hartford.  Mine comes in on the system side.  http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/142897/Maintenance 

Glad you and your family got through the Sandy thing..

ChrisJ

Yep

Sandy hurt, though we got power back before many others who still do not have power even in this area.



I guess sometimes it pays to live on a main road.



I just rinsed the boiler into the new sump pump which certainly was easier than carrying buckets up. I rinsed and rinsed until all I got was clean water including the wet return.



Fired the boiler up ASAP to boil the fresh water and ****, my gauge glass turned rusty brown again even before it started boiling. Now part of my thinks this is probably just the nature of a steam boiler, BUT at the same time I've seen many people talk about keeping your boiler water clean.



Do I need to clean this thing again or is the rusty water here to stay and not hurting anything? This is something I've been trying to learn for a while now.



On another note, I have enough 1" insulation to do all of my pipes, its a matter of squeezing my fat lazy self into that area to do them.



This time I have ZERO hammering, so at least I've got that going for me.....

gerry gill

maybe this video will help,

with your boiler cleaning.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1tw9rz-pUk&feature=share&list=UU7gDszI9COdVbfvJP2YdY5Q

ChrisJ

Great video

I bet this video will help many. You had explained this before but seeing it actually done helps a lot.



Should the water in my gauge glass always be clear, or should I expect rusty water when its steaming? When sitting idle the water is crystal clear but turns red \ brown when its steaming.

crash2009

Thanks Gerry

Never would have imagined that a brand new boiler could be that dirty.  Finally we get to see your "Magic Wand" in action. 

What do you do when you don't have a floor drain?

SWEI

washing with wand

Very nice.  I thought you gave some details on the wand construction a few months back but I don't seem able to locate them.  Looks like it may be steel pipe (with some kind of straight thread fittings)?

gerry gill

it would be nice if the water

was crystal clear when steaming, but usually there is what looks like rust particles moving in the water when steaming, then settle down when not..thats pretty much normal..chemicals can help alot. I use rhomar 903 i think it is, in my boiler. I generally use just one or two tablets of Rectorseal steamaster in customers boilers.

ChrisJ

Pics

Ok So here we go.



When sitting off the gauge glass, shes spotless.



When running the gauge glass, shes rusty!



Normal or not?



I just took these pictures within the past half hour or so.

ChrisJ

Chemicals

HI Gerry,



Why a different treatment in your boiler vs the customers? Also can either of these be purchased in small quantities by someone such as my self?

gerry gill

Hi SWEI- its just

copper pipe with a hose fitting on one side and in the video i was using the tip that is a 1/2'' copper elbow..but have recently started using a designed i copied from my apprentice who made a sold capped pipe and drilled 1/16th inch holes radially around the tip.

gerry gill

If there is no floor drain

it really sucks..usually i just skim then.

gerry gill

normal for a boiler thats not washed out.

or doesn't have additives.

SWEI

copper pipe

Saw the copper at the end -- must have been oxidation on the rest of it.  Flare fittings?

gerry gill

ChrisJ- i was using rhomar

in my boiler before i started using the rectorseal. So i havent switched.. i have some rhomar customers also for the same reason..not sure if it was a good idea to mix agents, you know.

Rhomar will sell you a case of 4 gallons over the phone.

gerry gill

solder fittings.

there are unions in the middle so i can make its length change for different peoples boilers.

SWEI

Unions

Perfect - thanks!

ChrisJ

Rectorseal Steamaster Tablets

Looks like I'll be buying a bottle of Rectorseal 68732 36 Steamaster Tablets.

Will these really cut down on rust a lot?



I would've started using something last year but it seemed like most here were against additives.

SWEI

chemicals

Based mostly on what I've read here, and with previous Rhomar experience, I'm going to try 9150 on a system that has about a century's worth of crud in it.

crash2009

That picture on the left

 looks just like my sight glass.  If you look real close when the boiler first starts, and watch that thin film, in the upper 1/2, I always thought that was oil.  After 4 or 5 hours of skimming the film will go away for a couple months, then gradually it will return.

ChrisJ

clear

Your glass stays clear like that when steaming crash?

JStar

Water

Have you power flushed the returns? With a new boiler, old pipes get banged around and loosen up a lot of crud.

gerry gill

just dont follow the directions on the bottle

or the boiler will go bonkers..heres what we do..we skim, then rinse out, then put four tablets in and refill and steam for ten minutes..the water will get nasty, and the pressure switch terminals may need to get jumped, just to keep the boiler running, then we drain, rinse out, skim, drain, throw in one tablet if the boiler is little, or two if its bigger, then refill and steam. the water has a violet color when done. JSTAR is correct also in that if your returns are nasty, then the nasty keeps coming back.

ChrisJ

returns

First week in this house I found out what a clogged wet return was. Shortly after I ended up with brand new copper wet returns.

ChrisJ

Wow

Not exactly as easy as they want you to think with the "toss some tablets in and go to bed" instructions.



My boiler is an EG-45 (150K btu input) so I would think that falls into the small category?

crash2009

When

 the boiler is clean,,,YES,,,actually it looks better.  Doesn't stay clean for long though, usually I skim and backflush again right around Xmas.



Skim for hours, not pails.  Flush the returns, flush the boiler. Install a drain valve in that 2" plug.  (there's a trick to it) Move the beer fridge and the big screen down there for a few days.

ChrisJ

fresh water

Crash,



My concern is we know fresh water is bad, no matter when you add it or how it is bad. Its just not near as bad when you flush the boiler instead of adding makeup water where the water you lost, left minerals and crap behind.



What bothers me is whats more harmful, the rust in the water or adding a ton of fresh water to rinse it out?

crash2009

I can understand

 your hesitation to run any fresh water through your system, but I think there is a big difference between good water and bad water.  Your old system had a lot of bad water going into it, as you say, fresh water was added every time it ran.  Fresh water likely sat there all summer burning a hole in the block.  I'm not suggesting that you clean it 24 times a day.  Just get it clean once, see how long it lasts, and compare your performance. 

ChrisJ

stupid, blasted Hoffman 1As....

Well I finally figured out what changed in the system.  After the 12 degree receovery I had found one radiator had stopped heating due to water in the orifice of the 1A vent on it.  What I didn't realize was another, much larger one (55EDR)  in another room also had this problem.  It seems like I will have problems with a drop of water getting stuck in the orifice of these vents until I switch to Gorton's.



It also seems  the one takeoff in my crawl space to my downstairs bathroom is borderline if I shut off one radiator I get water hammer due to the slight increase in flow to it

crash2009

You've mentioned

 this Hoffman water droplet a few times now.  Don't your Hoffmans have a drip tongue?

ChrisJ

Drip tongue

Yessir they do.



The water droplet forms in the tiny hole under the cap where it vents. If you remove any of the 10 vents I have installed and tip it, you will get water out. This makes sense, if you look at the design its impossible for all of the water to drain out as the bottom sits lower than the threaded section.



I just now got the radiator to heat upstairs by removing the cap from the vent and using a can of air with a straw. I put the straw near the hole and blew and this cleared the vent for operation. The radiator heated almost immediately.



I have 12 of these vents I bought new with 10 in use and I have swapped the two spares into the system over time and all 12 behave the same. The vent I cleared today is set wide open and I have others which are set to vent at various other speeds. Whether I vent slow, or fast it still seems to happen from time to time and its annoying.

BobC

1A's

I've had the Hoffman 1A's on my system for a few years now and the only complaint I have is that the sometimes hiss a bit more than I'd like but they work well for me. My 12 ft 2" main has a Gorton #1 on it and my Vaporstats cut out is 12 oz.



I just got the Smith G8 / EZ Gas installed and really haven't run the system much except for skimming but everything upstairs is working the same as it did when I was using the Burnham v75 oil fired boiler. You said that you find this on all the vents, do you think you might have wet steam?



Try some Gortons or Maid O Mists and see they fair better. It seems you can buy the small orifice MOM's and just drill them out for whatever vent rate you need.



Bob

ChrisJ

wet steam

I don't know, is there any easy way to tell?



My gauge glass bounces some but I would say less than an inch, once the system is steaming good I would say within a half inch.

BobC

Put some on the stove and boil it

I remember when you installed that boiler the piping around it looked good so that leaves the water inside the boiler. You might try drawing a quart off the boiler and boiling it to see how it acts, if it shows any foaming you could have more skimming to do - or perhaps build yourself a magic wand to clean the inside of the boiler. Is the near boiler piping insulated?



I skimmed my new boiler for the 3rd time last weekend and I "think" I'm almost ok but only time will tell.



Bob

crash2009

There are a couple different styles

 of Gorton radiator vents.  The one on the left is the traditional angled vent.  The vent on the right is called a straight vent.  Comparing the 2 side by side, my opinion would be that the straight vent would drain quicker and more completely.  Obviously you would have to use an elbow and maybe an extention.  Might be worth a try on the worst radiator. 



Did you get the G-1 I sent you?

ChrisJ

Vent

No vent yet crash, though remember we are still trying to get back to normal here in NJ.

ChrisJ

insulation

Yep the header is completely insulated including the fittings. I still need to finish insulating the mains, though I would say 80+% is insulated.



I may try boiling some water on the stove, others have recommended this but I keep putting it off.

crash2009

I heard

 the USPS was going door to door in rowboats.  That must slow them down a bit.

ChrisJ

Wow

First off, the USPS is NOT that determined.

If there are too many wet leaves on a road they don't deliver.

ChrisJ

Wand

I made my own wand today out of parts I found at Lowes.

I used a 1/2" to 1/4" reducer into a 1/4" elbow and put a 1/4" cap on the end.  Then I drilled a 5/32 hole in the cap.



It gave me a little more pressure than I expected, but I guess thats a good thing.  I'm going to wait until my bottle of steamaster tablets comes to use it.  No sense in draining the boiler twice in one week.