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Peerless G-561-W-S Repipe

Hap_Hazzard
Hap_Hazzard Member Posts: 2,849
3" drop header

2"-1 1/4" equalizer

New control configuration



I'm not celebrating yet. As I started filling the boiler and getting ready to fire it up I heard a leak, so I shut off the water and found a huge leak in the mud leg. Now I've drained it and taken it apart and found that the pipe has rusted through. I've tried to replace this pipe several times but haven't been able to break it loose and just left well enough alone. Now that's not an option anymore.
Just another DIYer | King of Prussia, PA
1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S | 3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24

Comments

  • Hap_Hazzard
    Hap_Hazzard Member Posts: 2,849
    The "before" picture.

    In case you never saw what it looked like before...
    Just another DIYer | King of Prussia, PA
    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S | 3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
  • crash2009
    crash2009 Member Posts: 1,484
    edited October 2012
    Holy S&#$ Batman

    ain't no water gonna get out of that boiler!  Well, through the top anyway. Bummer about the leak.
  • Hap_Hazzard
    Hap_Hazzard Member Posts: 2,849
    Just wasn't my night.

    Hope things go better tonight, but I'm a little apprehensive. I tried to take that pipe out months ago because it didn't look good, but all I got by standing on my 48" pipe wrench was to crush the pipe a little and almost tip the boiler over, so I chickened out. Now it's back to haunt me. I'd feel better if I had a 2" npt tap. I don't even know where to get one.
    Just another DIYer | King of Prussia, PA
    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S | 3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
  • crash2009
    crash2009 Member Posts: 1,484
    I suppose

     you all ready considered using some heat? 
  • Hap_Hazzard
    Hap_Hazzard Member Posts: 2,849
    I sure have.

    It's 65° in here. I could definitely use some heat. I'm freezing!



    If you mean taking a torch to my boiler, I could use up a lot of MAPP gas that way, but it wouldn't make much difference. I think I'll just go around the neck of the pipe with a cross peen hammer and see if I can break the threads loose without cracking the boiler.
    Just another DIYer | King of Prussia, PA
    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S | 3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
  • An idea

    heat, PB Blaster.  and then,if it fits, hammer in a nipple one diameter smaller than the pipe you are trying to remove.  This strengthens the walls of the nipple so it won't crush when you pu the wrench on it.  Threading on a fitting on the end of the nipple also helps some.
    The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

    Chicago's Steam Heating Expert





    Noisy Radiators are a Cry for Help
  • Rod
    Rod Posts: 2,067
    edited October 2012
    Kroil

    I used to use PB Blaster but on the advice of friend, tried Kroil and have had very good luck with it. It made by Kano Labs  http://www.kanolabs.com/penLub.html and you can get it direct or thorough Amazon. Some industrial supply places carry it also. I’ve used it to free nuts that had rusted on so bad that all you could see was a knob of rust. Another thing that works well for breaking out things like bushings is "freeze mist" which is sold in electronics Stores. The Freeze Mist cools the bushing way down (contracts it) and then I give it a shot of the Kroil.  I usually let it sit overnight to let the Kroil penetrate.

    - Rod
  • Hap_Hazzard
    Hap_Hazzard Member Posts: 2,849
    Tricks

    I always put some kind of fitting on the end when I'm trying to break a pipe joint. I thought of stuffing something inside too, but I didn't have anything the right size.



    Fortunately the pipe was more substantial closer to the boiler, but I had to remove all the controls and trim from the right side so I could turn a wrench without breaking anything off.



    I was having a hard time getting the big pipe wrench to bite for some reason, so I used my 14" rapid-grip, which bites like a bear but the handle isn't long enough. When I added a 3' 1 1/2" pipe for leverage, it didn't turn it but put a deep crease into the pipe. That gave the pipe wrench something to hold onto, and when I grabbed it at just the right angle, it also kept the pipe wrench from further collapsing the pipe. Once I got the full force of that 48" wrench working against the joint, it finally gave.



    It came out pretty cleanly. I just had to clean out the threads with a wire brush, so I didn't need that 2" tap after all, but I was able to locate one. Where? Why, here, of course. You have to keep a few of these around the office. ;-D
    Just another DIYer | King of Prussia, PA
    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S | 3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
  • Hap_Hazzard
    Hap_Hazzard Member Posts: 2,849
    We all have our favorite penetrating oils.

    I like CRC 5-56. It works great and smells nice. PB Blaster smells awful, and for some reason it's just impossible for me to aim the spray accurately. I never tried Kroil, but I am absolutely sure that it won't penetrate hardened pipe joint compound any better than CRC, PB Blaster, WD-40, Liquid Wrench, Lock-Eze, Marvel Mystery Oil or Astroglide. They're all perfectly useless in this situation. Pipe joint compound seals threads. Nothing can penetrate it. They probably use it in the pipelines in the plants where they make and package your favorite penetrating oil, and I bet their pipes don't leak.
    Just another DIYer | King of Prussia, PA
    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S | 3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
  • crash2009
    crash2009 Member Posts: 1,484
    Congrats!

    Glad you got it out.  Office Depot, good grief.  Bidding starts at 50 for a 2" tapp on ebay.
  • Hap_Hazzard
    Hap_Hazzard Member Posts: 2,849
    Slightly used?

    I'd rather get the one from Office Depot. I've never tried their machine tools, but if they're as good as their staplers... look out!



    Yeah, got it out, got the new one in. By the time I finished it was too late to fill and fire it. Didn't want to risk waking up to a flooded basement if I forgot to tighten something.



    Tonight for sure!
    Just another DIYer | King of Prussia, PA
    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S | 3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
  • Hap_Hazzard
    Hap_Hazzard Member Posts: 2,849
    Smooth as a pig on stilts.

    So I start filling the boiler and find another leak. Same place but not as bad. I knew right away what the problem was. I had been using this pipe joint compound, but I only had a little left, so I had bought a tube of this kind in case I ran out. I didn't run out, but last night I left the can upstairs where I had installed a radiator and decided to try the new stuff instead of running upstairs to get the old stuff.



    The texture seemed a little weird to me. Instead of a thick, gooey paste, it was more like a light, fluffy consistency that didn't seem to want to stick to the pipe. When I screwed fittings on it seemed to roll up into little balls instead of forming a meniscus between pipe and fitting. I only did a handful of joints with it, and one of them was leaking. You might say I am not impressed. So tonight I wiped the new gunk off and put some of the old stuff on and put it all back together, and now I'm sitting in a nice, warm house.



    It was fun sitting next to the boiler listening to the water trickling down the equalizer. Other than that, the whole system seems even quieter than it was before, but the most interesting thing to me was how stable the pressure is once the vents all close. The pressure is negligible while the mains are filling, then it gradually increases while vents are closing, but once it gets up to .35 lbs. (5.6 oz) it stays there until the thermostat cuts out. I could reduce the pressure by replacing the pressuretrol with a vaporstat and making it cycle on pressure, but I don't think 5 or 6 ounces is too much, do you?



    Next I've got to insulate this thing. It's like a big radiator!
    Just another DIYer | King of Prussia, PA
    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S | 3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
  • AaronH
    AaronH Member Posts: 59
    Cloud 9

    You must be on cloud 9 right now! Thanks for posting your progress, it's an inspiration to me as I count down the days (currently 2) until I tear into my near boiler piping. 
    2001 Weil McLain SGO-3 Steam Boiler/Beckett AFG oil burner. Vaporstat running at 1.0psi max. Single-pipe, counterflow system (w/near-boiler drips) connected to 8 radiators heating 1400sq/ft (2 stories) in Central NJ, built in 1915. Bock 32e Oil-Fired H/W heater w/Wayne burner. Lots to do and getting there slowly.
  • crash2009
    crash2009 Member Posts: 1,484
    It sure looks great Hap

      I noticed you straightened out the mains too.  Took ya long enough, whadaya do take a summer holiday? 

    Reminds me of the summer that dad sent us boys to the lake for the summer, to build him a log cabin.  It took us all summer to get 4 logs high.  After the first snow, and dad reminding us, that's where you are sleeping this winter, it went up pretty quick.
  • Dave in QCA
    Dave in QCA Member Posts: 1,785
    Beautiful!

    Your piping redo is fantastic!  Nice to know that there are real measurable results to the operating characteristics too!  Sounds like your pressure is running exactly where you want it.  I am guessing that you are also getting very even distribution as well.
    Dave in Quad Cities, America
    Weil-McLain 680 with Riello 2-stage burner, December 2012. Firing rate=375MBH Low, 690MBH Hi.
    System = Early Dunham 2-pipe Vacuo-Vapor (inlet and outlet both at bottom of radiators) Traps are Dunham #2 rebuilt w. Barnes-Jones Cage Units, Dunham-Bush 1E, Mepco 1E, and Armstrong TS-2. All valves haveTunstall orifices sized at 8 oz.
    Current connected load EDR= 1,259 sq ft, Original system EDR = 2,100 sq ft Vaporstat, 13 oz cutout, 4 oz cutin - Temp. control Tekmar 279.
    http://grandviewdavenport.com
  • Hap_Hazzard
    Hap_Hazzard Member Posts: 2,849
    Rectorseal 5

    I've used Rectorseal 5 before. In fact I used it when I repiped the returns on this system. It seems to work fine, but despite what they say it does harden. I had to take apart some of the joints I used it on last year, and it was hard to break them and hard to remove it with a wire brush. I definitely wanted to use something with PTFE this time around.
    Just another DIYer | King of Prussia, PA
    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S | 3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
  • Hap_Hazzard
    Hap_Hazzard Member Posts: 2,849
    edited October 2012
    Do they have to mention steam?

    They specifically say, "Not recommended for oxygen," but they don't say it isn't recommended for steam. Besides, the leak was below the water line, and I hadn't even lit the pilot yet, so steam was not a factor in this failure.



    Anyway, whatever their intent, I'm definitely not recommending it for any purpose. I'm glad I only got a small tube of it.
    Just another DIYer | King of Prussia, PA
    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S | 3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
  • Hap_Hazzard
    Hap_Hazzard Member Posts: 2,849
    What took me so long...

    aside from having to take it apart and put it back together about a hundred times and having to knock apart the existing pipes--most of which turned out to be galvanized, by the way--was that I had a bunch of other projects I was working on and a couple of emergencies that popped up, and everything takes longer than you think when you get into it and find somebody else knuckleheaded it, like the bathroom floor I wanted to re-tile where somebody had jackhammered out the toilet flange and cracked the slab, then poured concrete right up to the level of the remaining tile to fill in around the new flange.
    Just another DIYer | King of Prussia, PA
    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S | 3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
  • Hap_Hazzard
    Hap_Hazzard Member Posts: 2,849
    Thank you.

    I think the distribution needs work. I had it working pretty well last year, but some of the vents might have gone bad. I noticed one of the upstairs radiators sounded like it was panting and wheezing, like air was not just moving one way, but I didn't have time to check it out. The radiator I repainted is turned off until I can make an angled nipple so it fits into its recess. It's always something.
    Just another DIYer | King of Prussia, PA
    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S | 3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
  • crash2009
    crash2009 Member Posts: 1,484
    Sorry Hap

     I didn't mean to pull your leg that hard.  Thanks, I just wanted to hear the "it ain't easy" speach.
  • Hap_Hazzard
    Hap_Hazzard Member Posts: 2,849
    My leg's okay :-)

    Didn't mean to sound testy. I know you're a good guy with a great sense of humor.



    I have to say that, of all the work I did this summer, building this header was the most enjoyable and the one I learned the most from.



    I'm looking forward to using the information you posted on insulation, but I probably won't be quite as thorough as you were.
    Just another DIYer | King of Prussia, PA
    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S | 3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,732
    Nice work!

    and you now see why proper piping makes all the difference. 
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • Hap_Hazzard
    Hap_Hazzard Member Posts: 2,849
    Proper piping

    The moment I knew this had to be repiped was when I learned what swing-arms are for. It's a wonder this thing lasted as long as it did with that "H" configuration. I could have rearranged the old pipes to take the strain off the sections, but then I thought, why do things halfway?



    Thanks for all your advice, guidance, and most of all the example you set.
    Just another DIYer | King of Prussia, PA
    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S | 3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
  • crash2009
    crash2009 Member Posts: 1,484
    When I insulated

     I was a little bit too thorough.  I insulated everything.  Ended up having to cut a bit off here and there.  I wanted the basement to be the same temp as the rest of the house.  Just about froze the water line the first month, then started removing 3 foot sections of insulation until I made it comfortable down here.  If you enjoy math, you can use one of those calculators, in my insulation post, to figure the btu loss of uninsulated mains, then do a heat loss for the basement, based on the ambiant you want, then you know how much to "not" insulate.  Just having a quick glance around here, I have removed about 10 lineal feet of main insulation for every 400 square feet of floor area.  Maybe this is one for Rod's Steam Man list: 

    You know you are a steam man if you do a heatloss wearing sandals and a pair of jockey shorts.
  • Hap_Hazzard
    Hap_Hazzard Member Posts: 2,849
    I kinda went the other way.

    I insulated the mains and the risers with this stuff made for hot air ducts by wrapping it lengthwise around the pipes, which made it too thin to do much good. It made a noticeable difference in the steam that was available to some of my upstairs radiators, but the basement was still the warmest place in the house.



    I think I'm going to start by insulating that new header and the risers, because they're just blasting heat out into the room, and that's the last place you want any condensation happening, then I'll start replacing the insulation on the mains and maybe wrapping it around some of the takeoffs.



    I found this site called zorotools that has some pretty good prices on fiberglass and closed-cell rubber pipe insulation. They even have insulation for fittings, but I'm not sure if they're right for black pipe fittings.
    Just another DIYer | King of Prussia, PA
    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S | 3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
  • Hap_Hazzard
    Hap_Hazzard Member Posts: 2,849
    And not a moment too soon!

    We're getting our first freeze tonight. I'm sitting here watching the temperature drop outside, thinking how lucky I am to have had all your help and encouragement, and the benefit of your collective experience. What a great resource this is!
    Just another DIYer | King of Prussia, PA
    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S | 3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
  • Toymotorhead
    Toymotorhead Member Posts: 54
    Looks good from here.

    Looks good from here. I am dreaming of some near boiler piping work on my house, you can learn a lot after reading a whole lot of this forum.  If you are looking for insulation check keep an eye on craigslist if there is one near you. Last winter I got a screaming deal on insulation. And I see it go by every once in a while here in MA, for far less then retail.



    Cheers

    Richard 
    If you can't be good, at least be good at it.
  • Hap_Hazzard
    Hap_Hazzard Member Posts: 2,849
    Staples is selling that same tap for $67.99.

    http://www.staples.com/HANSON-High-Carbon-Steel-Taper-Pipe-Tap-2-11-1-2-NPT/product_770484



    What is the deal with office supply stores selling machine tools I can't even find at hardware stores?
    Just another DIYer | King of Prussia, PA
    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S | 3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
  • Hap_Hazzard
    Hap_Hazzard Member Posts: 2,849
    That must have been the stuff crash2009 was taking off. :-)

    That's a good tip, Richard. I will keep that in mind.
    Just another DIYer | King of Prussia, PA
    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S | 3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
This discussion has been closed.