Short Cycling New Burnham 5SIN

Steve Nichols

Perfect!

Not much to say on this.  You hit it right on the head Dave in all aspects.  I'm really hoping I can get the boiler changed out and I'm willing to eat some of the cost to do so. I have no idea how customer friendly the Burnham reps are so I'm keeping my expectations in check.

Just for your knowledge, numbers were posted but I know they can get lost in a long thread:

I have 12 variously dimensioned thin tube convectors recessed in walls, floor mounted

Actual EDR: 256 (Dan's EDR book).  Looks to me like that 4 section would be perfect for this considering the low pickup factor.

Man, I hope this turns out okay.  I put a LOT of time into prepping for this changeover!

Dave in QCA

IN-4 match to system

Yes, the IN-4 has a rated EDR of 271 sq ft compared to your system EDR of 256 sq ft.  It is CERTAINLY a better match than the IN-5 which ha an EDR rating of 358.



Even the IN-4 is oversized slightly for your system, but is certainly close enough.  Keep in mind that these numbers already have factored into them the piping loss factor 10% and the pickup factor of 23%.  The pickup factor primarliy relates to the properties of cast iron systems that have a huge mass that must be heated up and the operating characteristics of those systems, especially their tendancy toward imbalanced steam distribution.  The pickup factor helps make the system work correctly.  The characteristics of your system are different and the actual pickup factor that is necessary would be less.  Just how much, I do not know.  It is certain that the IN-3 would be too small for the system, so the IN-4 is the best choice.  Even with the IN-4, you may see some cycling off on pressure, but it should not be as quick as it is presently.  After all, you would be reducing the input by nearly a third.



Again, good luck on this.  It will turn out OK.

ChrisJ

If I was you, which I'm not

I would have went with a Weil-Mclain EG-35 rated for 258sqft.  I would still push for it, however I think its going to be difficult enough getting them to swap an IN4 in, switching brands will be even harder if not impossible.  But, I wanted to throw the idea out there anyway.

Dave in QCA

Steam Nirvanna

That would have been an idealistically PERFECT match, seldom obtained by the average homeowner. 

Is it possible?  Probably depends on whether the contractor has a relationship with the WM distributor.    Good call Chris!

Steve Nichols

Guys, It's just too darn big!

Just finished installing two G1's on each main.

Installed low pressure gauge teed off above pigtail for pressuretrol. 

With system running and Ptrol set to operate between 0.5 and 1.5psi, burner on time is 2 minutes max.  Initially, pressure stays pretty low (about .1psi) until the convector vents begin to click shut, then it climbs.

The mass thing...can be calculated based on specific heat capacity (mass of material, thermal properties of material, change in temp).  I'd be willing to bet that all of my convectors woudn't add up to one radiator in my friend's house, not to mention that fact that the tubes are either aluminum or copper..not cast iron.

This will indeed be a "teachable moment" in my class when we discuss heat transfer.

Steve Nichols

can't do..went through gas conversion program

Only the Burnham steam boilers are offered in the "rebate program" when converting from oil to gas.  Otherwise, a super option from a "fit perspective".

Steve Nichols

double post..sorry

crash2009

Don't be surprised

 if the engineer's next suggestion will be to restrict the gas line to reduce the output of the burner?  It cost me a month to figure and fix that crap over here.

Steve Nichols

a bad idea?

Crash, I think I get what you're saying but  just so I'm clear on this, the reduction of the gas line is NOT a good solution to the problem, right, b/c the boiler is sized for a particular gas input and it will cause other things to crop up in the heating system? 

I just want to know what options will yield the best results and which should not be considered.  Ideally, I'm hoping for an IN4 but I won't know until next week.

Thanks,

Paul48

Might

Be able to get the things necessary to remove a section from Burnham.....new jacket and burner?

Steve Nichols

Can they do this?

Hey, I'm game.  How hard can it be (nudge, wink)?

Paul48

Couldn't

hurt to ask......Is there any way this boiler could be converted? Let them show you how smart they are! ;P

ChrisJ

Caution

IF they do decide to pull the block apart I would insist on a pressure test before they fill it with water. You don't need a leak at a push nipple slowly showing up over the next year or two.

Steve Nichols

stevnich@verizon.net

Great Idea Chris,

I'll keep that on my "to do" list if that option arises. 

crash2009

I don't know

if it's a good idea or a bad one.  It is an idea, and it might be worth your while to explore it, if you end up with a dead end with the other problems.  I would ask the question over in the gas section of this website, and see what comes of it.



Mine was originally installed with a restricted gas line, and I could run the boiler 24 hours a day without building an ounce of pressure.  What damage it did, I don't know.  Maybe it wrecked the chimney, I never asked, I just wanted some pressure.  The guys over in the gas section helped me get some.  http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/134161/I-have-a-WM-EG55-with-377-EDR  Here is the finished gas line upgrade  http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/134484/No-Pressure-Problem-Solved

Steve Nichols

wow

beautiful install Crash.   I hope I can keep up with all the new info. coming my way.  My main concern is figuring out the which are the best options of  the ones offered to me and then knowing who should do them, if you catch my drift.

Gas is a foreign area for me.  I would "guess" that if you could keep the manifold pressure at the correct rate and reduce the gas coming it, that should take down the input BTU.  Again, I may be stating things that are entirely incorrect, so bear with me and feel free to point out my gaps in knowledge. 

I would expect that anything done relative to gas would necessitate someone who knows how to use a CGA and what can be done to keep the boiler as efficient as possible, if that's even possible.  Man, my head is starting to spin.

How long should a burner be able to cycle without cutting out on pressure? Indefinitely if the boiler matches the connected load? 

crash2009

Precisely

If everything is matched up exactly, and you have no leaks, you should be able to idle forever.  Not that you would want to $$$, but you could if you wanted.  You probably know more about gas than I do. I don't even know what a CGA is.  My only concern with restricting the gas line is the flue gas eating the chimney.  When mine was restricted, there was no smoke, ever.  I was worried that the exaust gases were not even leaving the building.  Like I said before, check it out with the gas experts.  I was going to give you a shortcut, too late I see you have posted over there all ready.  http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/142781/Reducing-gas-supply-to-oversized-steam-boiler

Steve Nichols

Is it normal

for white smoke/condensation(?) to be coming out of chimney on startup of the gas boiler? Eventually the smoke goes away but having never had one of these setups, I'm just a bit curious.

Dave in QCA

clarify

What do you mean by chimney?  Can you take a picture and post please?

Steve Nichols

picture of startup smoke/steam

Here you go Dave.



no, we have not just elected a new Pope.

crash2009

Thermostat

Steve, I just stumbled into the post about the adjustability of a particular model of thermostat than can be set to the type of radiator you have.  Terry suggests setting #22 for copper convectors and #40 for cast iron radiators.  I think he was commenting on a White Rogers brand.  http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/123688/Best-Thermostat-for-Steam-Heat-Systems



this is totally un-related to your smoke observation.

Dave in QCA

It is normal

I was confused because I think that you had originally asked about water coming out of the chimney, of course, which would not be normal.  But water vapor is normal coming out of a chimney of a gas fired appliance is normal.  They biproducts of the compustion of natural gas, which is methane (CH4) is carbon dioxide and water.  For every molecule of methane you get on molecule of carbon dioxide and two molecules of water.  The water will be vapor form, but when the exhuast hits cool atmopheric temperatures, it will partially condense.  What you see is a somewhat thin billowy cloud of steam.  The water vapor will reevaporate as it thins out and dissipates into dryer atmophere.  The colder it is outside that longer it takes to reevaporate and the bigger the apparent cloud of steam will be.



This cloud of steam is entirely different than the heavy dense billowy cloud of steam that you will see coming out of the chimney of a boiiler that has a leak above the water line and is spewing steam up the chimney.  It is one of those things that you will recognize the first time you ever see it.

Steve Nichols

phew

Thanks Dave,

I was hoping my problems weren't getting compounded.  Nice to know that the boiler is still intact.

Steve Nichols

Cool

Thanks Crash,

I'll give that a look-see once I get the whole boiler issue squared away.  Never knew they made Tstats to handle stuff like this.  Very encouraging.

Steve Nichols

Bad News...unless something changes

Okay, Everyone here's an update.

Contractor and Burnham Rep came out today.  The Rep saw no problem with 1.25" equalizer and suggested to continue to skim boiler for the bouncing waterline.  I commented on the short cycling, and he believed that short cycling issue was due to improper venting on radiators.  I indicated the initial heat up cycle was 15 mins but once vents closed on temperature, the cycle time was 2 mins and no concern was shown. 

Rep was however concerned with the drop in pressure once boiler shut off.  I asked if that wasn't due to burner shutting off and decreasing pressure in boiler. I commented that if it didn't come down off of pressure, when would it know to fire off again?

I tried to bring conversation around to sizing of boiler and again nothing really was said. 

The Rep let me speak with the head steam guy at Burnham and ended up talking with him on the phone outside and he said that the boiler was oversized when I told him my EDR calcs vs. what was in the house.

Rep on site said that basically the boiler is functioning as intended and that anything else is out of their scope since it falls back on the installer. 

Maybe there will be some conversations back and forth between contractor and rep, but I think I'm done and have an oversized boiler that I am stuck with. 

Regardless of how this ended or may end, I wanted to take the time to thank each and every one of you who took the time over the past two weeks to provide advice, guidance and knowledge.

Steve