Ghost Flow

Hermes

I think I have read all the forums on ghosting, but I still haven't hit on my problem exactly. I have a mix use boiler,1 zone DHW, 1 zone HW baseboard, 4 zones Radiant floor, each zone has a Taco 007 circulator and BG check valves.It's controled by a SR504 daisey chained to a SR503 taco control and has another 007 circulator on the return of the boiler. I get ghosting on the top radiant zone & sometimes the next one down. I have replaced the check valves on both zones, but did not help.My thought is the return circulator is drawing enough pressure drop to open the check valves. I might add that three radiant zones share the same return(2 ghosts one does not). I came to the conclusion I have two options replace the taco controls with IFC's, having two check valves or put a Hydrotrol HT-34 on the return line.I have been battling this problem for several years and I would much appreciate your input.

icesailor

Ghost In The Flow:

Why did you do it like that?

Your problem is where you have the supply circulators returning behind a circulator on the return. You have a return before the rest of the supply, and too much "Stuff"

Water doesn't care where it goes and will go wherever you let it find its way.

SWEI

too much stuff

especially stuff that uses electricity.  Smart circ and zone valves, anyone?

Hermes

Ghost flow

I "didn't do it" a contractor did(they were so proud they posted a picture on their main page of their website) and I have spoke with them several times over the years trying to rectify the problem, but to no avail. I have asked a couple of heating people also and only one said "I know it has something to do with that circulator, but I can't remember what" If I understand what your saying,you want to move the radiant return to in front of the return ciculator? What I understood during the installation was that return circulator was there to help pull the water through the long runs of the radiant floor. I really do appreciate the help.... Finally I am getting some kind of answers

SWEI

is that a mixing valve

behind the spray bottle in the photo?

Hermes

ghosting answers

Yes it is, I will take another picture if you would like. I am sitting here ecstatic that I'm getting anwsers

icesailor

Pulling Circulators:

Another one that doesn't understand how pumps in closed loop piping arrangements work. It's another case of using circulators to overcome bad piping design.

If that is a mixer behind the spray bottle, does it have internal checks? If not, you can get Ghost Flow through something as simple as that.

Hermes

Help not criticism

I thought I was finally going to get some help

CMadatMe

Yikes

Mixing valve should have been a 4-way not a 3-way and I'll leave it at that. I'm getting the sawzall.

SWEI

Help

is what you're getting.



Once the knuckleheading is fully understood, remedies will come forth.

CMadatMe

Help

I did give you help. Valve should be a 4-way and then the piping fixed, thus the sawzall.

Hermes

The valve behind the bottle

I took some more pictures. The valve is a Watts 2000 flow check. I had the heat on this morning & the third zone ghost flowed, the top two did not. I'm sorry, I am very frustrated.When they installed this furnace they had it hot all the time 24/7/365 because of the DHW. I was using a lot of oil. I switched to a electric hot water for summer & had the boiler switch to a cold start. This gave me a significant savings.

icesailor

You didn't do it:

You didn't install it that way. You are being asked to figure out what is wrong with something that isn't working. When you figure it out, you will have a better understanding.

We here like to look at things that don't work and try to figure out why they don't and how to fix them.

You can work your whole life and not experience what you can learn in 6 months of following this site.

There is a singer/songwriter, Christine Lavin who wrote and recorded a song with a chorus about "What was I thinking? What, was I blind? (some part of the line, missing) I must have been out of my mind". Some things I have seen here and in the field, I hum that tune in my head. What were they thinking? Were they out of their minds?

Hermes

4-way mixing valve

Ok, so all I have to do is reroute the radiant returns to the 4-way. Is there a certain Mfg. you guys prefer?What temp should I be putting thru the radiant floor?

CMadatMe

Suggest You

Red this http://www.caleffi.us/en_US/caleffi/Details/Magazines/pdf/idronics_7_us.pdf and then find a contractor that knows what he is doing..

Hermes

9 years

is how long I have been battling this. I don't need my bedroom 84 degrees. I don't want to go in the basement to turn off valves so my house can cool down. It is great that you guys support such a site. I'm sorry to say that a good portion of the professionals that show up at the door really don't have a clue. You provide a tremendous service. To be able to double check. thank you!

Jean-David Beyer

What temp should I be putting thru the radiant floor?

It depends. As usual.



I have a radiant floor and the temperature I put through it depends on the outdoor temperature. When it is 50F or warmer outside, I put 75F water through it (iff the thermostat calls for heat, of course). Between 50F outside and 6F outside, the temperature is gradually increased to 120F. This is so that I can use as low a temperature as possible so that the mod-con boiler can do a maximum of condensing for maximum efficiency. Everything depends on what type of boiler you have, the controls it has, your heat loads, and so on.

Gordan

You don't have "the 4-way"

You have a 3-way mixing valve right now, and the way it's plumbed in is confusing. The other guys have a much better eye than I do since it seems like they can tell what's going on; I can't seem to figure it out without pictures all around of the boiler loop, or a diagram of what's connected to what.



One thing that's really confusing me is the connection from the "mixed" supply manifold (the one that all the zone circs are on) and the boiler loop. That really doesn't make any sense to me. The zone circs should be pulling only through the mixing valve's outlet, and the only thing pulling through the mixing valve should be the zoning circs. The hot inlet to the mixing valve should be connected to the boiler loop through the upstream one of a set of closely-spaced tees; the zone return manifold should be on the other (downstream) tee in the set; and the mixing valve's cold inlet should be connected to the zone return manifold. This decouples the flow through the mixed circuit (and the zones) from the flow through the boiler loop. It does not provide thermal protection for the boiler; for that, you'd need a motorized 3-way valve and a controller with boiler protection logic. That would be a good way to add outdoor reset, too.



EDIT: Oy, vey, as has been pointed out, you don't have a mixing valve at all; you have a mis-installed flow check. I still can't tell heads from tails about how your returns are plumbed into the boiler loop (or how the boiler loop itself is plumbed) so it's hard to tell whether this is your biggest problem. It's unlikely that it is.

icesailor

I see a Ghost:

****!!!!

Is that really a Tack equivalent to a B&G SA-1" standard flow check with both inlet ports used where only one us usually used?

That must be something installed by someone that read a book on hydronics and thought he knew it all. I would enjoy being there to figure out all the things wrong with it.

Or as Steamhead says, "You can't fix stupid"

An old plumber I know was never known for the straightness of his piping. His comment was always "Water don't care where it goes". That's true. It will go where ever you let it go.

SWEI

Ghosts!

Is http://www.watts.com/pages/_products_details.asp?pid=683 really what that is?  If so, you have on your hands what can only be called a truly epic mis-install.  I'm amazed your system works at all.



You need a real pro.  Where are you located?

 

Hermes

location

I'm located in Saratoga, NY, If I replace that taco 2000 check valve with a 4-way mixing valve will that solve the problem?

Hermes

More pictures & piping idea

Here are some labeled pictures. The second picture is what I think is the solution. Using a Taco I series 4-way. The yellow is the new connections and the red being the cut and capped. Should the returns for the DHW and the baseboard loop also go into the 4-way. I want to make sure I know whats going on before I call a contractor. Thanks

JStar

Close

You have a system with multiple supply temperatures, so you don't need to mix-down all of the supply, just to the low temp zones.

Hermes

Sawzall

I get it now! The Sawzall reference...Can you take a look at my picture with what I think is the fix and give me your thoughts. Thanks

Hermes

Sawzall

I get it now! The Sawzall reference...Can you take a look at my picture with what I think is the fix and give me your thoughts. Thanks