Getting butt chewed for this. Sould I?

AFred

Put in a TT Excellence on friday on a remodel job. We removed the mains and will be home running all 10 cast iron rads. This boiler is replacing the original gravity boiler. I was told at the shop by the lead guy to pipe it using internal circ to save time(boss was not present), we are getting swamped with work right now. I just nodded my head and when I got to the job I piped it P/S. I did it that way because I believe its right and I wasn't going to take a shortcut. It does show piping it with out P/S in the IO manual if you can guaranty proper flow though hx.

I talked to my boss about it and he said it was fine, he just wanted me to avoid a "pissing match" at all cost.

The lead guy stopped by the job at the end of the day and blew a gasket. Luckily I was on a service call at the time. I soon got a phone call from him chewing my kiester up and down about wasting money and time and for doing whatever I want. I admit I don't have alot of respect for the lead guy because I don't like his slapdash work.

I know my boss will not like having to play 'mom' on monday.

What would you do? Am I a total jerk?

-Andrew

JStar

For what it's worth

Do the job right..at any cost.

nicholas bonham-carter

Difference of opinion

The instructions from the mfg were clear-pipe it pri-sec if you do not have adequate flow through the h/e. what more can be said? Would he want you to go against the installation instructions from the mfg, whose warranty your company will have to honor?

In spite of his disappointment at the job taking longer to complete, shouldn't he have known about this possibility? Tell the boss to keep him of your back.--NBC

TonyS

Why would you pipe

a TT primary secondary on a gravity replacement ? I mean REALLY why would you do that?

SWEI

unlikely, but

what flow do you need and, why won't the TT HX deliver it?

Gordy

First off

If you do not have time to do it right the first time you do not the second time.





You said the gravity system was converted to home run. So I would say you did the right thing. With that little information it's hard to judge if the system would allow proper flow to the hex with out p/s piping even with a low head hx like in the tt.





See what Mom has to say on mon. I guess.

Gordy

First off

If you do not have time to do it right the first time you do not the second time.





You said the gravity system was converted to home run. So I would say you did the right thing. With that little information it's hard to judge if the system would allow proper flow to the hex with out p/s piping even with a low head hx like in the tt.





See what Mom has to say on mon. I guess.

kcopp

better get...

all you ducks in a rw. Get drawings together and get the owners manual all ready...bookmarked, highlighted and ready to go. Have a picture ready of the way he wanted you to do it and the way you did it.

Be careful not to use to big of a circ on the secondary side w/ the old rads. A 15-58 on low prob would be fine....

icesailor

The "Chosen" One:

There's never enough time to do it right. But always time to do it over.

If it was money saved on the job, I would have told the fool that it would have been far cheaper to have left all the piping in place, piped it P/S with two circulators (and leaving space for an indirect) and piped the gravity system directly. Probably a hydraulic seperator for good measure.

Or, just connected the whole Mod/Con to the gravity system with ODR. It would then work like it was designed as a coal system.

Whow long did it take to run all that red PEX with home runs?

As a percentage of profit, there would have been more profit in keeping it simple rather than redesigning the world.

That "lead" installer needs to go out on his own and find out how the real world works.

Another really overdesigned system that will not work anywhere near as well as it could had it been kept simple.

Steve Whitbeck

strainer

I can't see in the picture - Did You install a strainer on the return to the boiler?

With an old cast iron system and a high efficient boiler You need to install a strainer to keep the junk out of the boiler.

Paul Pollets

Strainer

You can bet there is no strainer nor was the gravity system cleaned prior to commissioning the new appliance. "There wasn't enough time or the customer would have balked at the cost..."



Why run home runs with Pex when all is needed is to change out the original radiators valves to TRV's for a very responsive and efficient system? Provided the new boiler was piped correctly.

kcopp

I bet they....

pulled out the old steel pipig for head room purposes. Some of those pipes can take up a good deal of room. I installed a system w/ the home run way one time after I took over for another "plumber"... he was running 3/4" pex in one series loop from one rad to the next....

AFred

Guilty

Your right Steve, no strainer. It'll get the frenox flush at least.

The remodel includes finishing off some of the basement, hence the mains going by by. If you notice the capped off tees were installed for future zone for basement. That zone would only have 2-3 panels or chunks of fin tube. I don't think if it were piped non-P/S the boiler would get enough flow, if just the basement called. Or would I just be dealing with a monster delta T?

VictoriaEnergy

Maybe next time...

Maybe next time pipe it so it could easily be switched in the future; closely spaced 90s, a straight length suitably located to take the pump in the future etc. 



Doing an end run around a co-worker like that only makes the situation more toxic, and to what end?   The  lead is just going to claim you added cost to the job that wasn't necessary and wasted time.

AFred

Flow

Some of you had asked about flow rates. Well going by some simple, and maybe incorrect, math. I can get 1.4 gpm through 1/2" pex, take away some for head loss, about 1gpm per run, times 10 runs, roughly 10 gpm. Enough flow I say.

But in the IO manual on page 80 it states that with the 15-58 on speed 3, it only has 4.5' of head left after the hx. Sounds like I need the P/S so I can push that water though the pex runs and up to 1st and 2nd floor.

If my my math is sounding like garbage, I would like to know. All I know is what I've learned so far, some of my learning has come from 'lead guy'. I tend to take what I hear with a grain of salt.

-Andrew

TonyS

Missed the home run part

OK your forgivin LOL

Steve Whitbeck

P/S piping

I install every high efficient boiler with primary / secondary piping. I would still install the strainer. Those wet rotor pumps don't like sediment.

If you can't sell it with the proper parts DON'T sell it.

All it will do is cause your company to get a bad name a few years down the road when the boiler and pumps have problems and a short life. every one blames the boiler for it's problems and it is usually the install that caused the problems.

Here is Grand Rapids I am the person the local HTP distributor reccomends.

I have people calling me from all over the US with problems. ( because of my activity on the internet sites.)

Steve Whitbeck

2nd floor

It doesn't take any more head to lift the water up to the 2nd floor as long as the loop is not air locked. The resistance is in the extra piping and turns. The longer the piping and the more the turns the more resistance. Height doesn't mater. As you push the water up it is falling down the other side and drawing the water up the supply side. the pump only has to overcome the piping resistance ( piping, turns and valves)

JStar

Pump

You only size the pump for the highest restriction in the system. The other loops will work because they have less restriction.



The pump does not push anything up or down, it only moves water that is already there. Your static fill pressure will maintain water and pressure up to the second floor.

gennady

order

If your superior in the company told you to do it his way, you have to follow order. he is the one responsible for this job. when you will be the lead guy, you will call the shots.

AFred

Thanks

Thanks for the advice guys, even the stuff I didn't want to hear... Gennady.

I'm sure the 'pow wow' will be a blast this morning. Thanks again.

-Andrew

gennady

good luck

I would recognize the mistake, and try to calm everything down, promise you will never do it again. People get fired over this. It is not about what is right or wrong, it is about subordination. You challenged your superior, and he has to stand challenge if he wants to be superior, also he will want to give a lesson to everybody not to do it.

It is not about technicalities at the boiler installation. Just my opinion.

Henry

P/S

We pipe P/S even with mid-efficiency boilers. The savings are so great in energy. "Do it once. do it right"! We have standards for pump installs and piping size depending on flow rates.

gennady

P/S

We do P/S even in re piping of standard efficiency boilers always.

icesailor

The Blame Game:

Way back when (almost 50 years ago), I was a union carpenter. I was hired as an apprentice but that is another story. I was paid cheap. I was paired with a guy that was the shop steward on this job. His experience in carpentry was setting up shelves in supermarkets. I had been framing houses. The Super would give us jobs on a piece of paper. My "experienced" partner didn't want me to see any measurements because if he screwed up, I might notice it. So, we built a form for the footing for an elevator shaft mechanical pit. We tied the steel and poured it. He always held the college end of the 100' tape. I held the retard end. We built the walls, tied the steel and poured it. The building was a slab on grade. Two sides of the walls of the pit were part of the footings for the inside partitions. The outside walls were 12" reinforced concrete. After the soil was filled and compacted, the footings were laid out and the foundation was 12" off in two directions. The "Journeyman" blamed it on me for holding the tape on the wrong side of the wall. The wall was 8' high. Was I supposed to get a ladder to measure off the top of the wall to the outside? How much should I have subtracted for the angle? There was no discussion of him forgetting to subtract 12" for the wall.

There is no distance an arrogant mechanic will go to blame a mistake on someone else. He'll not ever make that second mistake in his life. The first mistake was that time he thought he was wrong, but came to find out he was right. 

Gordy

Ice sailor

Come on Ice you cut a foot on the tape, and you did not tell him ; ~)



Gordy