New House with steam system not behaving

David Nadle

shutting down

It's OK if your boiler never shuts down on pressure. It could mean your burner setup is ideally sized for the radiation. Pressure won't start to build until all the vents close, and it sounds like you are not getting there in 30 minutes.



3 to 4 minutes to fill the main is not bad. But... #4 vents are the smallest. That's probably why it's taking 20 minutes to fill the radiators. You should have a #4 on the rad in the room with the thermostat and bigger vents on the other radiators.

JeffBrown

vent sizes

I went with #4's because I was going with the "vent the main fast and your rads sloooow" idea.  Putting the #4's on the rads balanced the system as well as I've seen it thus far...That is to say, with the exception of the 2 problem rads on the 2nd floor, all the other rads heated up pretty much exactly at the same time.  Previously I had a #4 in the thermostat room and 5's and 6's in the other rooms based on rad size (and distance for the 2 problem rads) and that setup was extremely unbalanced where I had cold rads and burning hot rads at the same time.



I figured I would put a #4 everywhere to ensure I wasn't overventing and to make things slooooow and then adjust if necessary.  I am going to replace the vents on the problem rads with #5's and possibly 6's to see how that goes.



Or, are you suggesting the #4's are always too slow and should never be used except on the thermostat room rad?

David Nadle

Slow but not that slow

In my opinion, yes, #4s on everything is too slow. You want to vent the mains quickly so steam is presented to all takeoffs at the approximately the same time. After that, the vents should be sized based on the size of the radiator they're attached to and distance from the mains, with perhaps some adjustment up or down for warmer or cooler rooms.

Bio

Small vents should be ok

This article should work for you, you already have the small gorton #4, Boilerpro is very well known in the wall, http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/323/Boilers/1551/Taking-Another-Look-at-Steam-Boiler-Sizing-Methods-by-Dave-Boilerpro-Bunnell

JeffBrown

article

heh, that was the article that convinved me to try out extra slow radiator vents!  Another reason was to try and address some of the overheating going on.  For example, the first and second rads on my system (closest to boiler) are the kitchen and one of the 2nd floor bedrooms.  Before switching to #4's those two rads were half way heated across before others even started to warm up.  Granted I may be compensating for a poorly designed system but at least I've managed to get most of the rads to heat at the same time!



I have a steam guy coming out next week so I will be discussing these things with him as well...no doubt he will regret the day the decided to let me hire him



I do find this incredibly interesting however!

Charlie from wmass

did you get a combustion report on the boiler?

If the burner was not installed with the right damper it may not be properly firing also. If you are not firing well you are wasting fuel instead of turning it into steam. The piping does not seem out of line and more main venting is good. As for the nasty water each time you draw off water you add fresh water. If it is oil you need to get it out to protect the boiler gaskets.

JeffBrown

Combustion Report

I have a guy coming out next week to take a look so I will get the analysis done then (thank yu Find a Contractor).  I will also point out the damper issue and that my calculations seem to indicate that the burner is overfiring for the amount of radiation I have...See where things do from there.

Charlie from wmass

If you are trying to size an orfice

you need to know several factors. 1. What is the efficiency you will be firing at? 2. What is the pick up factor? ( as unlike the manufacturer specs it is not yet figured in) and 3. What is the flue temperature at the fire rate you have?

1. If you are firing 80% then 100,000 b.t.u.s through the meter only makes 80,000 b.t.u.s of steam.

2. If you need a 1.33 pick up factor due to your piping you are now down to 60,150 b.t.u.s of usable steam.

3. If your flue temp is too low you get condensation in the boiler or the flue and neither may play well with that.

You may not be as over fired as you think you are is my point.

JeffBrown

results on my friendly local heating companies

OK, had two different companies out....first one told me my main was overvented (2 hoffman 75's) and that I should remove the insulation from the riser/header.  They also wanted like $3000 to "skim and squick" the boiler and spent most of the time trying to sell me a new boiler and indirect water heater.  They also, per company policy, will not put any estimates in writing.  They claimed that Carlin doesn't sell parts for the EZ gas burner and that a new one would cost $4000.  They also will not service the EZ gas burner yet still wanted me to buy a yearly service plan.



Company 2 was familiar withe EZ gas and will service it.  However I was told that my hoffman 75 vents were "the wrong vents" and that they are only used on big commercial systems.



Neither one seemed intersted in doing a heat load calculation or adressing my concerns about the firing rate/combustion quality of the burner setup.



Lesson learned - don't assume because people are listed in the Find A Contractor section that they ought to be

JeffBrown

also, having problems removing pigtail

Looks like pipe compound was used to seal the pigtail on the boiler side and on the pressuretrol/gauge end.  I wanted to pipe in the low pressure gauge I recently bought but I am afraid im going to destroy the pigtail.....



What is the best way to address this?

Bio

Skimming

Keep skimming, many hours of skimming until you get a clear sight glass, then go once a week because it will come back and keep skimming until stays clear, as far as the contractor, keep looking... I interview 10 -13 contractors before I made the decision

crash2009

You might have to

 leave the pigtail in there, if you can't get it out without crushing it.  Can you loosen the pressuretrol?  Use 2 wrenches, one to hold the pigtail and the other for the pressuretrol.

Hap_Hazzard

On the boiler side

It looks like there's a bronze bushing where the pigtail connects to the boiler. I'd try to unscrew that rather than trying to unscrew the pigtail from it because you can get an open-end wrench on that rather than trying to grab the pigtail with something that won't crush it. If it comes out you can probably just break it off the pigtail and get another bushing. Bronze is somewhat brittle, so if you can't get it out with a reasonable amount of torque, fall back and punt. You don't want to break it off in there with the pigtail still inside.



You have to wonder what they were thinking using pipe joint compound on a pigtail. How did they think you were going to make sure it was filled, let alone deal with the clogs that develop?

Hap_Hazzard

Over vented?

That's a new one on me. I'd love to hear their rationale for removing the insulation. All it would do is heat your basement in the least cost-effective way while making less steam available to your radiators, but they could fix that by cranking up the pressure and turning up the burner. Then when you complain about all the noise and spitting radiator vents they could tell you that's normal and sell you a "modern" forced-air system.



Did they send out a steam tech or a salesman?

BobC

Pigtail stuck

i had a similar problem with my old v75 boiler and was afraid of breaking the pigtail. I used a Jorgenson woodworking clamp to apply steady force on the stuck pigtail and got that pigtail out with no problem. that clamp is rather large, I was lucky to have enough room around the pigtail to swing the clamp.



Someday this keyboard will learn to spel!



Bob

JeffBrown

salesman or tech

good question.  The guy that came out was the tech but it's true he came across a lot more like a salesman.  And one of the sketchy ones at that.  He claimed to have been a mentored by of the owner of this website.....I have no idea of course but if that isn't true I would be very concerned if I were Dan.



BTW the rationale behind removing the insulation was the exact same reason I put it on in the first place - that you want to minimize steam condensation when the steam isnt in your radiators.  He seemed to be saying that removing the insulation on the near boiler piping would somehow help this....go figure.  I also don't get the over venting thing.....if anything I don't think I have enough venting based on the time it takes to fill the main fully w steam (about 3 minutes).....but I've spent enough on vents lately so I'll let that slide for now

Dave in QCA

Contractor is Confused

There is no functional reason in terms of making the steam work better that would be improved by removing the insulation.  Also, no operational problem that is created by having the insulation present - period.



In terms of venting the steam mains, there is no such thing as having them over vented.  You could install 30 Gorton #2 vents when 2 would be sufficient.  The extra 28 vents will not cause a problem - they will all close when the steam gets there.  Mains need to be vented as quickly as possible.  Of course the example that I gave of 30 vents would be overkill and the extra 28 vents would have no real effect other than the dent in your pocketbook.



Anyone who blames problems in your system on the insulation on your near boiler piping and/or the mains being overvented does not know what they are talking about.

Rod

Over Venting the Mains

Overventing the steam mains? That's really, really funny! He'd have a heart attack if he looked at Gerry Gill's website. http://www.gwgillplumbingandheating.com/webapp/GetPage?pid=414

JeffBrown

i know right?

There ought to be a Gorton #3 which is larger than the #2 and larger still than a 4, 5 6, C, or D.  That makes perfect sense no?

JeffBrown

You wouldn't believe what I found in my boiler

Though it would be amusing if it were a cat or something mucking everything up, but no, there was some serious sludge in the bottom of the boiler/wet return.



I drained the entire thing yesterday and used the water fill valve to flush the bottom of it out and I got all kinds of sludge.  Things are much cleaner now that I've done that. I did a quick boil to boil out any dissolved oxygen and the water seems a lot cleaner in the glass and less volatile!   Usually when the thing gets up to temp the water turns a lovely shade of brown.



Maybe my issue was less oil floating on top than it was 20 lbs of crap on the bottom!



I previously noted that the return pipe where the main vent is located seems to have a lot of gunk in it as well (like I stuck my finger in the hole and could feel chunks of stuff).  Since I can't disassembled the piping, is there any reason I couldn't connect up a water hose to the main vent tapping and flush that line out while draining the boiler again?



Don't worry I let everything cool before I started putting gallons of cold water into it!

JeffBrown

can't get anything loose

pigtail, tee, gauge, pressuretrol are all pipe compounded together.  I had two adjustable wrenches going on each joint until I thought I was going to break something and nothing budgeted even a little.



I did not try to undo the bushing in the boiler itself (what the pigtail is screwed into).  Clearly I don't want to break that.  And even if I did get that open, I'm still stuck with a pigtail, tee, pressuretrol, gauge assembly that won't come apart.



maybe I'll just blow into the low pressure gauge while the boiler's running....and pretend my it's running at a nice low pressure!

crash2009

I wouldn't do that If I were you

You might end up with a mouthful of steam.  Let the boiler cool first.

crash2009

You could

 connect a garden hose to the main vent tapping and drain through the boiler if you wanted.  Is there no way to drain the wet return before it goes up and over the Hartford Loop?