help with heating

patsy

i own a 2 family home my tenant is upstairs, we are downstairs we heat with oil, hot water heater. my tenant always has the windows open in the dead of winter, which drives my hubby nuts! tenent says it get too warm upstairs, so they open the windows, but say they always keep the thermostat off.  (it goes down to 50) so even though they turn their thermostat down,. are we still losing heat  & wasting money out the windows? her heat is included in the rent. I have a separate control I keep my thermostat at 69-70. I think my heat is rising up & going out their open windows.    I want to be able to tell them that yes my heat IS rising into your apt. & going out YOUR windows which in turn kicks my heat on more often..am i right?   thanks for the help before the winter comes!

Robert_25

Gravity circulation

My first thought is that there is no flow-check (or a non functional one) on the upstairs zone...this would allow hot water to circulate through the radiatiors via gravity.

icesailor

hot tenants

You need a heating professional that knows what they are looking at and if and why what you describe is in fact, happening.

What you need to look at is too complicated to describe here.

You can try posting photos here and we can look at it. Post photos of all piping around the boiler. Circulators and valves. Electrical controls.

BobC

radiators hot?

If the radiators upstairs are getting hot with that thermostat not calling for heat there is something wrong with a pump,  flow valve or perhaps the thermostat itself; find out what isn't working and have it repaired.



Your heat is going upstairs it should not be able to make it "hot" upstairs unless there are open staircases from the first to second floor.



Bob

JohnNY

Heat migration is a difficult condition.

We use a thermal imaging camera to find the paths of heat migration and it never lies. Your tenant's space is overheating for some reason and while it probably has to do with some heat escaping the system and finding it's way into their radiators, their could also be a problem with infiltration between floors.

This is undoubtedly costing you money and guessing at it's causes and solutions will likely cost you more.



Here's a thermal image of a heat pipe running through an uninsulated soffit. The wall surface is 82°F making it a constant and unwanted radiant panel radiator.



The next picture is of a radiator in a room with its thermostat turned off. Heat is migrating up through the return piping when the boiler makes hot water. Not cool. We fixed this with a minor adjustment and replacement of a broken flow-control valve.

j a_2

Questions

1   What type of heating emitters rads or baseboard?

2   Do the rads or the baseboards get warm,on the 2nd floor with your thermo.on?

     If so stop there and find out why..

3   If the answer is yes your  problem lies within the near boiler piping or controls.

4   If the answer is no and they just like it cold  in there unit  a good insulator is in

     order

Answer the questions and it will easier to help you  

patsy

heatingHELP

thanks for all the answers, it is baesboard heat newly installed less than 9 yrs ago,  they have told me several times they like it very cool, I dont think there is a problem anywhere with the heating system,  all i am asking really is if its probable that our heat downstairs is rising up keeping the upstairs warm, and by them opening the windows is letting the heat escape, which in turn causes the furnace to kick on,  where as its never ending as they always have the windows open, i assume a lot of money is going out the wondows...correct?  I want to ask them to keep the windows closed as I think its costing a lot of wasted money & just want something to back me up, as they said 3 years ago, there is no connection. to their windows being open & our heat going out the windows, i disagree. thanks for the help.

j a_2

heat

I hope this makes sense, but once the heat leaves the intended area, you want it out of there.  What I mean is you want the attic as cold as the outside...If they are not running there heat the best thing for you to do is try to keep the heat as long as possible in your unit...Insulation is the answer....Heat in the attic is damaging and useless...So consider there unit as an attic...OK.?

nicholas bonham-carter

Overheated tennants

See if you can get a wireless indoor/outdoor thermostat which will give you the maximum and minimum temperatures upstairs. Then you will know how much heat you are losing from your system. You will also find out if they are being too sensitive about the temperature, and also if your temperature downstairs is set too high.--NBC

patsy

help with heat

thanks for all the help from everyone, yes i get what you are saying about to insulate & all....but aside from that, i am still confused about simply whether or not heat is going out their open windows,  yes or no, thanks so much!

CMadatMe

Is Heat Going Out the Windows

Sit in your car turn the heat on and roll down the windows. It's a common sense question.

The real question is why if the thermostat is not callling for heat are the emmitters in the apartment producing it? Do you care more about the tenants opening the windows because they are uncomfortable from an over heated space or why the apartment is over heating in the first place?

patsy

help with heating

hello, the apt is not over heating they just like it cold, so they open the windows to keep it cold cause our heat is rising into their apt.making it warm (normal 70) im just asking if out heat is also going out their open windows, or if that is indeed not possible. thanks

patsy

help with heating

hello, the apt isnt  overheating its just normal temp, they just happen to like it about 60.... but i dont hink i should have to have heat (money) going out the windows,

j a_2

your answer

Your answer is here in the posts...Your heat is not going out there windows...Unless we did not get all the info described correctly....There heat is not on correct? As stated, once your heat leaves your heated space it has done its job....You always want your attic as cold as the outside....OK?

nicholas bonham-carter

Open windows

How are they turning the thermostat off? I would make sure that the system is still not overheating them. Has the system been serviced? What is the outside temperature in the dead of winter?--NBC

Gordan

That's an interesting way to look at it...

I can't agree with it, though. There's a reason why attics are supposed to be kept cold, and it has to do with ice dams and condensation on the decking. This is not an attic - it is conditioned space. If that space is kept cooler, more heat will flow to it from warmer spaces. (Same with attics, but unlike attics, in this case there is no benefit such as longevity of the building to offset the added energy cost.) So, there's reason to be concerned. Insulation helps, obviously, but is not a super-easy retrofit.



Still, I'm with the other Wallies thinking that other possible causes (primarily, heat migration through the piping, and issues with zone controls) should be looked at.



Barring everything else, get a tennant who likes their place warm...

Paul Fredricks_3

my 2 cents

Are the radiators upstairs warm? If they are, then either their thermostat is calling for heat or there is a problem in the system letting the heat rise up through the piping.

If they aren't warm, then it's your heat, rising up through the floor, and keeping them warm. We keep our house at 62°. If that's what they like, then they are going to feel hot.

The house is an insulated box. If you make an opening in the top of the box (window) the heat is going to rise up out of the box, to be replaced with cool air from below which has to be reheated. Yes, that's your heat going out the windows.

The solutions to this? 1. Tell them they can't open their windows in the winter (good luck with that, they are allowed to be comfortable). 2. Lower your thermostats. If we kept our house at 70° in the winter we'd be walking around in t-**** and shorts. In my opinion a cooler house is healthier. 3. Insulate your ceiling/their floor to keep the heat from rising out of your space.

That's about it. Good luck. Have you ever seen the movie Pacific Heights? It is the reason I will never be a landlord.

j a_2

untold story

Homeowner......Questions   Are there rads warm?  yes or no...Is your basic question, is it costing your heating bills to be higher because they use your left over heat to keep warm ,yes or no...Are you sure there heat is in no way connected to your heat,yes or no?  Once again, once the heat leaves your space its done with its useful life...Your question and its resolve is based on what and how you describe it......Suggestion call the energy program offered free in your area and get there advise....Or swap units and let them heat your unit   Just kidding

patsy

help with heating

thanks all for all the help from you all,  everybodys 2 cents! I appreciate it has helped me.  i dont know if it makes a difference but this is a 1 family home that was converted into a 2 family we share the same furnace & all but each have our own control. I do believe that we need more insulation. & there is a staircase with a closed door at top & at bottom.  we also put in  top of the line brand new energy saver windows 3 yrs ago.  but in the short term I think my question has been answered as far as " is heat going out the windows"...it would be pretty hard to believe that it wasnt, i think i need to ask them to keep windows closed, i think if there is heat in the apt. upstairs where its comfortably warm, whether its seeping up from my apt. or not (warm air rises does it not?)  & their windows are open when its 20 degrees out, heat is gotta be going out the windows, who agrees?

CMadatMe

Paying the Rent

Glad I'm not your tenant because if you knocked on my door and told me that I have to live the way you want me to, I''d politely ask you to leave and have a nice day. Then you would be looking for a new tenant.. I suggest you turn down your thermostat becuase it's to hot in here and I think you should be cold and uncomfortable instead of me being hot and uncomfortable.

patsy

help with heating

i understand where you are coming from but dont you think when your landlord is paying for your heat its sorta rude & inconsiderate to leave your windows open all winter long,  there should be a happy medium, that is if indeed heat is going out the windows...just saying...plus they get a lot of bennies, free cable, free garbage removel, free internet, snow removel, plus their hrs got cut at work & we lowered the rent by 50.00 a month, we are great landlords redone bathroom & kitchen this summer to boot. our heating biils are so high since they been here this will be the 4th winter, i think i have the right to ask them to at least keep them closed most of the time, this is my house after all.  who agrees?

CMadatMe

Dear Landlord

Since I pay my rent every month and you will not take care of this over heating problem in my apartment that I pay for, I have to inform you that I will continue to fix the problem by opening my windows. I don't have to be uncomfortble in the home I pay for.

patsy

help with heating

they are not turning it off..per say,  the stat goes down to 50 degress, so they say they put it down as far as it goes, again it doesnt get over heated upstairs, its normal average temp. they just like it very cool. (she gets hot flashes i guess) so they keep the windows open. it gets cold like 20s ,but to have us spend hundreds more on heating i think is rude.

patsy

help with heating

everyone is under the assumption that the apt is overheating...no, its normal temp, they like it colder than normal.

patsy

help with heat

this was a single family home, the upstairs was turned into an apt, so i guess we do share the same heat

CMadatMe

Normal

There is no normal when it comes to comfort. What is comfortable for you may not be for me. I don't have to live in your comfort if I chose not to. Last I knew we live in America, you know, that free country.



You also have the right not to renew my lease if you don't like my comfort level..



Get it?

Patrick_North

Your heatloss is not their fault.

Patsy,

1.       Yes, some of “your heat” is probably warming their apartment.

2.       No, you don’t have any cause to be mad at them for this condition.

3.       Even if they close their windows, “your heat” will still be warming their apartment. The only difference is you'll both be angry.

 

You have the same problem every homeowner has: you want to keep as much of the heat you paid to generate within your living space as long as possible. While I can see how it might be irksome that someone else is benefitting from what is essentially your waste, this doesn’t change the fact that YOU need to address YOUR heatloss, just like the rest of us.

If you want your tenants to be on their own in this regard, you need to isolate their living space with insulation and anti-infiltration methods just like the rest of us who don’t want to pay to heat our attics.

 

I’m imagining a city getting mad at bums sleeping over steam grates in the winter because they’re mooching all of that heat…

 

Bite the bullet and insulate!

 

Good luck,

Patrick