Midco Radial Burner

Rod

Out of curiosity I emailed Medco and asked about their radial burner and if and when it would be available for cast iron steam boilers and apparently it is fairly close to reality. Here is the contact info for those of you that might be interested. This unit is really exciting and may be a godsend for residential steam heating!

- Rod



Reply:

" From: <a href="http://this%2Eis%2Ea%2Erelative%2Eurlmailto:Charliea@midcointernational.com/">Charliea@midcointernational.com</a>

Subject: Re: Midco Low NOX Radial Burner

Date: Sep 19, 2012 5:03 AM



Yes it is available for steam boilers. We have fired the peerless boilers. What model boilers are you referring to? We have a 500,000 to 100,000 model and 1,000,000 to 200,000 model. If you have a chance call me at 773 398-5187 to discuss in more details.

Charlie Aiello "

Rod

Radial Flame Burner

Hi Mark-

 It would appear that this burner has the capacity to fully modulate. I should have probably included the following links in the original post



Installation Manual:   http://www.midcointernational.com/pdf/8471-87.pdf

Product Info:  http://www.midcointernational.com/pdf/8475-01.pdf



There is also some more interesting discussion on this burner in Dave’s thread:

http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/142362/Two-Stage-firing-on-WM-580

- Rod

SWEI

control options?

I'm quite excited by the possibilities and look forward to writing some control strategies for these.  Reposting from the original thread and its somewhat confusing title:



Install manual is quite specific to the MUA application.  Not a lot of

detail on modulation control, though it seems there might be 0-10V along

with PWM input options?

vaporvac

Anyone Intalled 1 yet?

I read this develpment with interest.  Has anyone installed one yet or know if they're compatible with the wet-based boilers, off-hand. I'm referring mainly to the SF Intrepid or the Smith g8.  Any thoughts as to whether this would cause condensation problems and necessitate a SS liner or DV as with the modcons? I like the idea of a lower setting with my VaporVac as I think it would mimic the slower burn of coal...is this correct thinking or should I just stop procrastinating and get a boiler already? CTD

Jean-David Beyer

Has anyone installed one yet

That burner looks so much like the burner in the Weil-McLain Ultra 2 and Ultra 3 boilers that it is uncanny. The Ultra burners premix the air and gas and then blow it into a burner just like that. The Ultra 3 I have is an 80K BTU/hour model (the smallest) and goes down to 16K BTU/hour. But the principle is the same. The Ultra burners are spark ignited as well, and the igniter is used as the flame detector once it is started.



See page 2 and 5; This is for an Ultra 2.



http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/multimedia-library/pdf/weil-mclain-pdf/products/discontinued/discontinued-boilers/ultra-series-boiler/ultratechlit.pdf

Rod

Bingo!

Wow! That sure looks like the same animal as the Midco  Any one know anything about the Ultra 2 boiler/ burner?  It was sold in 2010, why was it discontinued by Weil McLain?

- Rod

Jean-David Beyer

Any one know anything about the Ultra 2 boiler/ burner?

I am not a pro, but i do have an Ultra 3 boiler/burner. I got it in May 2009. The Ultra 2 was being phased out at that time.



The Ultra 3 is very much like the Ultra 2. The burners are essentially the same.



The main difference is that the primitive, but overly complex, PhD controller has been replaced by what they call the U-control that makes a lot more sense, has many more things you can do (up to three thermostat inputs, each with its own reset curve, controls up to three circulators (I wish it did 4), messages in plain English instead of mysterious numeric codes, and so on).



Each year my heating contractor opens the whole thing (burner, heat exchanger) up for cleaning and inspection. And I always watch, because I am interested in such things. And to provide my torque wrench and socket because they never seem to have one and with an aluminum heat exchanger, it just makes sense to me that he use a torque wrench and socket and not a pair of channel-lock pliers. The techie does bring a digital combustion analyzer and uses it, if I remember to mention it when making the service call.

Rod

Radial Burner

Thanks for the input. The radial burner really interests me. Since it already has a track record I was just wondering what problems it may have had. Getting the right controls for it to run properly in a steam boiler is also going to be an issue.  Another thing I can see is that It needs well filtered intake air and maybe also from an outside source.

 You're very wise to be standing by with the torque wrench. I find it really hard to believe that anyone competent working on aluminum bolt on parts wouldn't have /use one.

- Rod

SWEI

controls

Spoke with Charlie this afternoon and got a bit more info:



2-10V control signal controls modulation and is also used to limit firing rate, so the controls have nearly complete authority other than startup & purge cycles (those are controlled onboard.)



A quality solid state pressure transducer costs about half what a vaporstat does.  This could get interesting...

Rod

Radial Burner

That is interesting! Any word on efficiency when used in the Peerless steam boilers? Are they working on a control to mate with this burner?

- Rod

SWEI

Efficiency

Didn't ask about efficiency.  No indication they are working on controls -- at these sizes it's primarily going to see commercial and industrial uses.  A Siemens RWF40 would probably be a good fit, but I can get a 4x4 BACnet controller for a fraction of what those cost.



They currently have no plans for smaller versions, BTW.

Jean-David Beyer

I was just wondering what problems it may have had.

Since I am just a homeowner, my observations are not statistically significant. I have had no problems with this burner and heat exchanger. The only problem with the boiler was related to installation errors by the installing contractor who is no longer my heating contractor.



My boiler is a mod-con, which probably has somewhat different requirements than a steam boiler may have. But maybe not much different. They both should burn cleanly and efficiently. The efficiency may be different because in my mod-con there is little reason to get the water up to the boiling point. When I run it, it rarely goes over 135F except when making domestic hot water in my indirect hot water heater. Then its set-point is 175F +|- 5F. I assume the efficiency of the W-M boiler is around the same as this Midco burner. What will matter will be the efficiency of the W-M heat exchanger vs. the efficiency of whatever boiler you put the Midco in.



As far as track record is concerned, I know only about mine that is about to start its fourth heating season. It provides hot water (indirect) all year. The burner and heat exchanger are examined and cleaned once a year, and my current contractor replaces the igniter each time even though W-M require only that it be cleaned and inspected. I guess my contractor hates call-backs. I assume the people here that install these things may have more comprehensive information, but I get the impression that there are not all that many W-M Ultras installed by the people posting on this site.



I get the combustion air from outside. My boiler is in my attached garage, and the air intake pipe is parallel to the exhaust vent pipe that go up to the ceiling, across the garage, and then out through a side wall in the garage. So those pipes are less than a foot apart. The exhaust shoots straight out, and the combustion air comes in from the side. When the boiler is modulated most of the way down, and if there is not much wind, the intake can sniff in some of the exhaust air, but I estimate it is not all that much. There is no air filter in the combustion air piping. That air comes in the top of the boiler casing and any heavy particles would fall to the bottom and not get drawn into the blower that feeds the burner. So fine dust would get blown into the burner if it was not heavy enough to fall out of the air stream. I have noticed no problems with this.



"You're very wise to be standing by with the torque wrench. I find it

really hard to believe that anyone competent working on aluminum bolt on

parts wouldn't have /use one.'



My former contractor would not even open the heat exchanger and burner to do the required maintenance. I did a lot of shopping around for my present contractor who is much better. He has his shortcomings too. Both are fairly large companies with decades of experience. The new contractor does not like to bring a digital combustion analyzer along, and is clearly not up to speed on the controller for this boiler (i.e,. does not seem to have read the manual), but will accept advice and bring and use the analyzer. He also does not want to install a mixing valve on the output of the indirect tank so I can run it at 140F instead of 125F and mix it down. He insists that those valves are unreliable and cause more trouble than they are worth.  I have a clever valve like that, and it does need rebuilding every 10 years or so. So I do that. It does seem I should just get the right one, plumb it in according to directions, and I would like three thermometers hooked up to the three pipes. I know I need only the one on the output, but I like to know what is going on. I am kind-of afraid he is the best contractor around here.