What type of heating system should I use?

JTamby

Hello all,

I was hoping to get some honest advise about what to use in a second home I'm planning to build.  We will be there maybe one week a month.  Natural gas is not available but I want to use propane.  Maybe bury a 1000 gal tank.  I want hot water.  I would like radiant.  House has 2350 square feet of heated space.  It's in southern Maine, Cumberland county.  High efficiency, direct vent.  I don't want my domestic hot water a part of the system.  I think I want a tank-less separate hot water heater.  Although I need to keep the home heated at maybe 55 degrees or so when I'm not there I feel it's a waste to keep hot water heated all the time.  I will have some floor tile and hardwood floors.  I've read the post about wide boards cupping, in place finished having surface checks in the poly.  Are certain species of woods better than others?

So if you were building a second home and price was less of a factor than getting an efficient trouble free system, what would you do?

Thanks for your comments in advance!

Joe T.

PS, I'm planning a whole house generator and home automation for remote access to the system.

Roland_18

First things first...........

Before you lay the first brick, think long and hard about insulation and air sealing above and beyond local code. More is better.

Do this and you will save BIG regardless of the heating system you decide to install. I know it's not as sexy as a high-tech, whiz-bang condensing boiler/furnace but you will thank me later...........Really.............

JTamby

Agreed!

Roland,  Thanks for you comment.  I very much agree.  The 2 builders I'm getting quotes from stress this as well.  2x6 exterior walls.  R-60 in the ceiling.  Exterior joints taped, Anderson Windows, etc.

I still need some comments about brans and type of system I should use.

Joe T.

Roland_18

In your spare time..............

Have a look at this website;

http://www.buildingscience.com/index_html

More about building and all things insulation than one can stand.

My wife and I LOVE Maine. We try to visit Bar Harbor once a year.

Best, Roland.......

Oh and you will get truly valuable information from the experts who visit here.

Roland_18

Slow news day?

While we are waiting for someone who actually has some credentials, I'll throw in my two zloty.





 As I suggested, insulate and air seal as if you live in a colder region. Insulation is like fuel you buy once and reap the benefits of long into the future.

I am paraphrasing what others have said over the years. My words are my own.

"There are no bad boilers, only bad installations". Indeed there have been particular models which have had, shall we say, "teething problems". 

In the fullness of time, most all problems have had a resolution or two. I don't remember reading about any truly evil heating equipment (others can chime in here) but descriptions and photos of less than optimal installations abound. The clue here; the installer is the most important quantity after you've decided which path to take.

Maybe as important, is to educate yourself deeply and profoundly. Be the heating system. Ask many questions.

You can have it all. Mod-con based radiant heat from the floor, walls and ceiling. High tech hot water via refrigerant based heat exchange.

If you've got open sky, you can have solar hot water. Or solar assisted hot water.

Home automation is truly the way of the future.

I will say that I'm slow to give up that much control of my environment to high technology. Must have something to do with coming out of the middle of the last century.

If you are considering using propane, you're probably going to want to go with as high an efficiency boiler as possible. It's no secret that propane is pricey stuff and you need more of it than natural gas or heating oil to get the same amount of heat energy.

Believe it or not, people are installing new STEAM heating systems.

Oh yes, there is also forced hot air which is great if you like burnt air. Not my first choice but everything has it's place.

Time to feed the cats. Good reading. Roland.........

Aaron_in_Maine

Comfortable

Get whatever system your Heating contractor is comfortable with. I personally have a Rinnai continuum for hot water myself and I think nothing is better. Boilers I like are any fire tube boiler(Triangle Tube, NTI, HTP). The difference is the controls built into it. Rinnai makes a good boiler as well.

JTamby

It really is about installation

Hi Roland,



Thanks again for your comments.  I agree Installer qualification is very important.  As for technology I love it since that is my current field.  I'm not a Mr. Greeny I just want a very efficient hot water radiant system that I can control remotely.

If anyone has comments about that type of system, good or bad I'm all ears.

Joe T

JTamby

NTI, HTP?

Hi Araon, thanks for your comments.  Things have come a long way since I did building back in the 70's & 80's.  Back then all the Plumber's put in Weil Mclain boilers.  Most were very inefficient.  Boiled water all the time even when the thermostat wasn't calling for heat.



Can you explain NTI, HTP? 



I relize that I will end up going with what the heating contractor says is good but everyone has opinions and how do you trust what someone states about the product he sells.  People sell things for many reseans besides quality of product.   Most of the time it comes down to profitabilty even before reliability.

Thanks again in advance for your comments!

Joe T

Aaron_in_Maine

Brands

NTI and HTP are different brands. Triangle Tube, NTI, HTP all have fire tube design boilers. The difference is in the controls. A lot of manufactures have fire tube design boilers now those are the three that I've seen up here. Weil McLain even has a fire tube boiler that I saw at the OESP show in may. Fire tube is a great condensening gas boiler design. For radiant or panel rads it will work great.

Roland_18

Read,read,read".......

A place to start is the I/O manual of several different boilers. Familiarize yourself with the minimum required piping and accessories( yes the installer will have to add additional parts). When you interview a potential installer, ask him HOW he will configure the heating system, by then you will be armed with enough information to get an idea of whether or not he will cut corners.

Invest in some good books on the system(s) you are considering. Knowledge is power and can save you from doing the job twice. Good books are available on this site.Others can give you their favorites.

Best, Roland....................

Roland_18

Read,read,read".......

A place to start is the I/O manual of several different boilers. Familiarize yourself with the minimum required piping and accessories( yes the installer will have to add additional parts). When you interview a potential installer, ask him HOW he will configure the heating system, by then you will be armed with enough information to get an idea of whether or not he will cut corners.

Invest in some good books on the system(s) you are considering. Knowledge is power and can save you from doing the job twice. Good books are available on this site.Others can give you their favorites.

Best, Roland....................

TonyS

I would start

with a good heat loss program such as HVAC calc. Lay out your house dimensions and then play with it. Add 2 inches of outsulation with drivit. Try skipping the 2x6 wall and use a double 2x4 chase and put in 12 inches of insulation. Move windows around take some out here and add some here. Its always a eye opener watching the btu count change when you add windows. Whats nice about these programs is you can change things back and forth and watch the loads change instantly.

Try to design the house with the lowest water temp flowing through the radiant as possible.

This will not only depend on the insulation but also on the type of radiant you install. Aluminum plates are a must in joist bays, no staple up.

For the heating system I would go with a Daiken Altherma and I would use the model with domestic also. I would not use it for cooling, I personally hate chilled water and duct work. A few well placed ductless heat pumps will offer zoning and a redundant heat source if there is a breakdown.

Then after you have this figured out, finish it off with a grid tie pv panel system. The new micro inverter systems allow for easy additions and panel monitoring.

With this system you could easily heat for free and have one of the most comfortable systems available. Electricity is the only fuel we can create ourselves, I would stay as far away from fossil fuel as you can.

CMadatMe

Boiler and System

Are two separate animals. The boiler is just a plant that delivers btus and a system is just asking for them. Your question is two fold.



Boiler, yes I agree you want the boiler to be the one your choice contractor is most comfortable with providing he is also going to be the one doing the service after the install.



Don't know enough about your project to really give you the best boiler dependent on the application.



On the system side, have to say radiant heat would be my choice of emmitter and Uponor Network my control choice. It will give you internet acess to not only the system but it has the ability to control boiler and every mechincal part of the system for not only you but also you service contractor. I woul not do an on demand heater if I went to a control system like this since I would have the ability to turn domestic on or off on my way up on a Friday afternoon.



Your system and boiler choice are going to rely on the person you decide on for the design and in my book it wouldn't be the archietect or his buddy engineer.



Find yourself a contractor that understands the science of hydronics not one that just does a pretty job..