Cost of operation for snowmelt

Boonierat

'mornin' folks.

One of our clients is installing a 3500 Sq. Ft. snowmelt job, at a ski area, in New England. Operator of the ski area wants the slab to 'Idle" (versus shut-down) during his season and come up on line as snowfall/freezing rain dictates. Any thoughts as to a yearly cost to operate a system this size taking into consideration this 'idling-issue" ? Fuel of choice will be #2 oil.

Regards

Nels

Mark Eatherton

Get out your check book.....

And get ready to support big oil.



The heat loss from a snow melt slab is dictated by many variables. Surface temperature being the first, wind loading being another, ambient temperature being another, snowfall/melting also a consideration, and believe it or not, the presence or non presence of cloud cover (night sky re-radiation).



As for being able to predict the energy consumption, good luck with that. Even if you had a similar system in a different location, you'd still be guessing due to the variables.



As for hourly costs during snow melting, thats pretty easy to calculate, but again, the hours of operation per year varies from year to year to the point that you'd be guessing there as well. Not easy numbers to nail down. Now, lets discuss control strategies.



Why "Idle"? Do they not trust the system design? Is it properly sized and installed? There are other options instead of idling. One is a remote melt enable switch that could be activated by a telephone switch, or internet connection. I'd still leave the system on "Automatic" operation, because if the system is trying to melt a significant accumulation, you will experience what is referred to as "bridging" . That's when the snow in direct contact with the slab melts, but as soon as it loses physical contact, the melting slows, or stops. Then you have to tromp around in snow shoes getting the snow back into contact with the melting surface.



I deal in a control logic that is internet based that has the ability to "anticipate" snow fall based on the N.W.S. forecasts, and can take the slab from cold to an idle condition, only if and when necessary. This results in excellent SIM performance, and maximum energy savings. It is the only system on the market with that ability to my knowledge. Others will follow I am sure. This system does require a full time internet connection in order to work, which is not always available.



Another possibility is to utilize the snowmelt surface during the summer months for doing things like DHW pre heat, swimming pool heating etc. You've got a really good solar collector sitting there during the summer months, why not put it to use. I know Mario Andretti heats his olympic size swimming pool from his snowmelt system.



HTH



ME

Mad Dog_2

We'll, Mr Eatherton designed A 5500 s.f one for me...

about 10 years ago and that cost the HO about $3500 in gas for the season, but it was a VERy cold and SNOWY season.  Snowmelt aint cheap, but THAT same HO would have spent about $6000 for plowing.  Mad Dog 

Mad Dog_2

Mark also passed on a VERY SOUND warning.....

If they ask how much it costs to run....they CAN'T afford it...and he was right...I gave MANY estimates for snowmelt...EVERYONE wanted it...UNTIL they realized what it would REALLY cost to run...its like owning a horse...the horse dont cost that much...its the board, feed, vet bills, horseshoeing.  Mad Dog

bill_105

Snowmelt cost

Can one of you guys recommend some good literature on snowmelt eystems.

To me it's just radiant that's outside.

And what about this electric stuff?

My take on it is that you only use it when you have to.

icesailor

Horse Care:

And the hours and hours of uncompensated time maintaining the beast. You can never do enough for little or no appreciation.

Mark Eatherton

bill...

I think Uponor (Wirsbo) has the best information available. They have an installation guide pertaining to snowmelt only.



As for electric, they'll tell you anything just to get you to buy it ;-) It too is subject to bridging. It is also much more expensive to operate, and most residential power systems are not equipped to handle the loads being imparted. Plus, as previously noted, a hydronic system can be run in reverse in the summer, harvesting the free energy falling on the slab. Unless an electric boiler is used, you can't do that with an electric snowmelt system. Plus, god forbid, if you ever lose a tube in a snowmelt system, you can find it with numerous technologies. If its electric and it breaks, you are screwed. Can't find the break, and couldn't fix it with any kind of reasonable life expectancy even if you could find it.



By all means, whenever possible, use a mod con boiler. It is THE ideal application for this technology. Boiler efficiencies approaching 99%. I've seen combustion analyzers jump to 100% for a few seconds during commissioning, and stay at 99% for the duration.



And NEVER have an automatic make up on ANY system using glycol. Here is a link to a conversation held here at the Wall regarding the Glycol PIG. It WILL save your bacon ;-)



http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/136433/glycol-feeder-and-mold



ME