Proper water fill on steam boiler location:

icesailor

Stupid question.

My old boss from many years ago always made us fill boilers, steam and hot water at the bottom. Regardless.

I have a job that I am doing  where I am trying to fix a lot of screw ups. One is where someone is feeding the boiler fill/LWC with a Watts 9-11 fill valve. There is no by-pass on the fill so you can't add water manually and the boiler can't add water when it is at the set level of the LWC/Fill. They have a separate water heater to fill the boiler with hot water so it is always being fed with 140 degree water. It is circulated from the heater.

It doesn't fill directly into the boiler but into a pipe that is connected to an outside pipe.

I have photos.

I didn't do any of this. I'm just trying to make it better.

Steamhead

Sounds like

you have your work cut out for you. Post the pics and let's take a look at it.

icesailor

Hack Photos:

Lets see how this works:



The first one is where the water connects.

The second one is the bottom of what I guess is an equalizer where the return and whatever is connected. I guess the two 2" 90's are a form of Hartford Loop connection.

The third is where the equalizer connects to what I guess is the header.

The last is a similar boiler,How Water, with a similar sized boiler with a similar Gas/Oil combi burner. The photo is of the gas train. The big square thingy on the left, on the burner side of the solenoid gas valve was left out because it wasn't needed. The burner came through set up for NG, not LPG. It was only fired once. It didn't run well and they never ran it again. Its been running on oil for 5 years. The gas train had absolutely no resemblence to the draying in the MA Gas Code for large gas burners for the size of the burner. No test ports, NG Maxitrol, and everything else.

The boiler and burner run fine. On oil. The system doesn't pound, surge, or misbehave in any other way.

This isn't my main focus in life. They know that they have "Issues". They are happy that I can resolve their issues, and it is interesting work.

gerry gill

jezze.

Is that a steam header lined up straight in that photo?

icesailor

Steam Header:

Its called WISIWIG. Seeing is believing.

icesailor

Comments & Questions:

I'd hoped for some comments. So, I guess I'll ask some questions.

This system, installed by others, is not of my doing. From what I gather, it has been running fine since 2007. I was called for burner issues. It wouldn't run. Some of the problems were due to steam control issues. I resolved these. From what I can see, there may be code issues that I would like to resolve without getting some code enforcement official, coming in and starting a huge issue, forcing some kind of shut down and putting a bunch of people out of work. Understanding what I am dealing with is helpful to my understanding.

The 3" flanged pipe going into the boiler and connected to the TOP of the supply header seems to be an equalizer pipe. There are numerous 2" pipes going into the bottom of the boiler. There is a 2" horizontal pipe connected to the 3" pipe and the connections are both below the water line. The pumped return that comes from another room from overhead, connects to the top of this line. The other side of the 3" has a 30" section where the water is fed, so the water isn't fed directly into the boiler. I guess that swing joint with the close nipple and the two 2" ells are an attempt at a Hartford Loop.

It is my understanding that this boiler needs two LWC's. The installer didn't feel the second one was needed, and I found it on the floor. Along with the high and low gas pressure sensors for the gas train, on a shelf along with the modulating gas valve. The whole mess not converted to LPG because it was sent as Nat. Gas. And no test port tees installed.

There's never enough time to do it right, but there is always time to do it over. When no one is willing or capable of doing it over, they may call me. I have other projects at this location involving potable hot water. I fit this in as needed.

Paul48

Wow

I wonder how the system would perform if they could get the rated amount of steam out of it. The flanges are the only thing that has kept the boiler from tearing itself apart. Converting it to gas with a new burner, and re-piping the near boiler piping would probably save at least 50% in fuel costs.

Steamhead

Agreed

Not sure what make and model the boiler is, but the piping is definitely wrong. Cast-iron and steel have different expansion rates, so a welded header like that puts unnecessary strain on the boiler sections. Tell us what boiler this is and we can look up the piping diagram.



The equalizer also serves to drain water out of the header. It needs to be at the far end of the header and coming off the bottom to do its job. This setup is undoubtedly producing wet steam.



I can't make out the feeder connection- it almost looks like a 51-2 is feeding into that big horizontal pipe. The feed water should enter the boiler at the bottom. We prefer connecting the feed a few feet away from the boiler, so the cold feed water can warm up a bit before it hits the cast-iron. This way a feed-water heater isn't needed.

Paul48

Steamhead

Wouldn't that configuration render the 1st two risers in the photo, useless?

Steamhead

Can't speak to that

till I see the manufacturer's piping diagram. That will tell us what goes where. But I'm pretty sure they want the steam risers to connect to the header first using swing joints, then the steam main takeoffs, then the equalizer. 

icesailor

Q&A's

It is my understanding that the size of the boiler was based on equipment that was going to be used. The price of copper went through the roof in 2007-2008 and they didn't purchase the equipment that would have made the unit work hard. The smaller load makes it way over-sized.

It is set up with a combination oil/gas modulating burner. From what I surmise, whomever ordered the boiler and burner, neglected to tell the burner manufacturer that the unit would be run on LPG and that there was absolutely no possibility that it would ever be run on Nat, Gas. When the equipment was delivered by the supplier, everything to connect the gas side of the burner was sent and sized for Nat. Gas. According to the gas tables, and the BTU input of the burner, it would take a 2" IPS pipe and all the required control and safety devices were supplied as such. A 2" Maxitrol for NG with 3" to 8" marked on the valve, 2" gas solenoid and 2" modulating valve. The distance from the outside LP regulator is less than 8' developed. 1 1/2" is all that is needed and 1 1/4" could have been used. The rating plate on the burner says Nat. Gas. The burner instructions say that no orifice is needed for NG but one is for the input range in this application. I have been told that they tried to fire it ONCE and it didn't run right. I'm glad that I wasn't there.

The bottom photo I posted shows one of two Burnham boilers (HW) recently installed with higher outputs and the same combi burners but at a slightly higher firing rate. Both are fed off a 1 1/2" feed.

icesailor

Filled Up:

The boiler is a 18 section Peerless. I don't remember what designation off the top of my head, but it is their largest model. The only similarity between the manufacturers drawings and the install are that there is a boiler in the manual. Any other similarities are coincidental.

I think that someone told them that steam boilers should be fed with hot water. So, they installed a 30 gal. gas water heater to feed it. It is circulated so that any water fed to it is hot.

I have to be careful what I saw. The owners have their ideas. But they are finding that what I say and do works well. I just re-piped the fill to eliminate the Watts 1156F feeding the 51-2 that had no by-pass on it so that as long as the 51-2 was satisfied, there was no way to get water into the boiler.

I guess you could sat that the header continues into the next room and the water returns from there. So, the water does drain from the main

Steamhead

"The only similarity.....

between the manufacturers drawings and the install are that there is a boiler in the manual. Any other similarities are coincidental."



You got that right. I bet whoever put this mess in never bothered to read the manual.



This should be an LCE-18. I've attached the I&O manual which contains the piping instructions. Whatever changes you make should follow the manufacturer's wishes. The burner manuals are also available online- which burner does this thing have?

Paul48

NG

Is NG not available at the location?

icesailor

NG Availability

It will be one of the last places in the USA that get NG. Unless it is LNG.

Paul48

Amazing!

They did just as much work, installing it absolutely wrong, as they would have installing it to manufacturers specs.For Pete's sake, you'd read the directions, if you sat down to play a game of Monopoly. Why would they not follow the directions!?

Steamhead

Because

here we go again.................



You can't fix stupid!

icesailor

Manuals:

I found a box with all needed manuals. The boiler manufacturers install manual was there. I also found plans, signed and stamped from a PE. Neither the plans or the install remotely looked like the install manual.

The burner is a Power Flame. The manual is there for that. That's where I found the part about needing an orifice for LPG and not for Nat. Gas for that firing rate. Mass. Gas Code requires that on burners this size, it must be first fired with a rep. of the burner manufacturer. So, I won't have to deal with that. And the State and the Rep ARE there because I have traveled with a rep for another job that they fired off. The last photo is of that job.

Like I said. Because the thing is so over-fired, and because it is underutilized, it seems to work. It was designed for more equipment. I don't think they have room for more equipment.

I have absolutely no idea who installed this. No one seems to know or they won't say. Names mentioned (in my opinion) are incapable of even standing up a section, let alone putting the whole thing together without leaks.

Someone with some knowledge must have been around because you mentioned letting cold water into a hot boiler. But they had installed a water heater with re-circulation so the boiler is always fed with hot water.

Jean-David Beyer

I found a box with all needed manuals.

I got my manuals when my boiler was installed. I had already downloaded them from the Internet. The ones my contractor gave me were factory sealed in a plastic film envelope. I wonder how they managed to read them without opening the plastic bag?



I am now cynical enough that I do not really wonder. They did not read them. Actually, the near boiler piping was done correctly, although in one place, I had to stop them from running the boiler through the indirect backwards from what the manual said. And they forgot to glue the PVC pipe together. The meant to: the joints were all purple, but no trace of glue.

icesailor

Risers & Swing Joints:

That's what is recommended. Threaded nipples with threaded ells.

I taught myself to read by reading the instructions on how to put plastic and wood models together when I was a child. It isn't hard.

Paul48

Early Demise

That boiler will most likely fail prematurely. It may put you in a bind, if it decides to fail right after you work on peripheral equipment that has nothing to do with the failure. It's easier to explain it now, than after it happens. CYA now, or be prepared to fight later.

icesailor

Premature Failure:

I think it will last a while. They don't beat it like they own it. On oil, it really runs smoothly. When I get the gas all straightened out and approved, we'll see.