Cutting off Upper Floor steam pipes

ch352

HI

we have a 4 floor home divided into 2 units and a one pipe steam system currently for both units, i want to cut the risers at the top of the second floor (end of 1st unit), cutting them off from the top floors (2nd unit), and then cap, and put air valves where needed, also convert boiler to gas and make sure the new boiler is sized for only half the system (b/c the upper floors will be cut off and have their own heating system).

so, is cutting the pipes and using the steam system only for the lower floors, as simple as it sounds? or is there a lot more to it?

thanks

The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

It probably can be done, but why?

Overall costs are lower with single systems, typically, and if temperature control is an issue, just get the system mains vented well, balance the venting on the radiators and install thermostatic valves on the radiators to give you room by room temperature control.  In the  Chicago area, if you split metering, the costs go up significantly due to the meter charges.  I am reglularly removing seperately metered units and combining buildings onto a single meter, savings thousands of dollars a year.   Also, Chicago requires rentals to provide information on utilty costs of rentals, so smart people will see the extra costs of seperate metering and look elsewhwere. 

ch352

that does not work for me

thanks for your reply

yes, as you mentioned the main reason i want to just cut the pipe and have separate systems is because of uneven heating, but we have actually worked (partially) on the idea you mentioned for about 2 winters, of which it sometimes did work a bit better, but because of technical difficulties which are not up to me, i was not able to give it a real proper try (which may have very well worked but like a said it's just not something i can change)

so at last separating the system seems like the only option to keep the house at a comfortable temp.

any more input is greatly appreciated.

The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

Sounds awfully expensive...

I had the same problem with an historic 3 flat in chicago.  When they found out it was going to cost $60,000.00 to put in separate systems (not including  the tens of thousands in architectural repairs) they were willing to fix the steam and have been grateful ever since.   If you can't get the building to heat evenly with properly set up Thermostatic valves providing room by room thermostats controling the temperature in reach room, it certainly won't heat properly with a only a couple of thermostats.     Are you sure they want to invest a huge sum of money for a likely completely inferior heating system.  Unless you are reconecting the steam system or putting in hot water with room by room control, nothing else will come close to what you have if it is upgraded with the proper controls.

Steamhead

Your quote

"but we have actually worked (partially) on the idea you mentioned"



tells me you haven't gone as far as you need to to solve the problem.



Steam Whisperer is right. If the work is done correctly you won't have these balancing problems. If you click on my company's name below, you'll see a job which was also four stories and how we balanced it. They haven't asked about cutting the top floors off the steam system, so it must be working right!

ch352

yes i am balancing the system but...

Thanks for your responses Steam Whisperer and Steamhead,

i understand and agree with you 100% but my situation is a bit complicated. her's the story...



1st let me just say, the idea of cutting the pipes is actually an attempt to SAVE half the system rather then trying to GET RID OF half the system as i will explain.



the uneven heat has been getting worse over the past few years.

over the past year I've read a lot about balancing the system, and yes i do believe as Steam Whisperer and Steamhead are suggesting that venting the mains and thermostatic valves will do the job, but unfortunately there are other people involved (it's basically a partnership) and they are being very very stubborn about letting me try what i should to solve the problem, it's too bad but that's the situation.

in addition the heat loss is very very different on each floor...



in their opinion the system will never work properly so i figured i'l keep the steam system for myself (on the bottom floors) and eventually (venting mains etc.) get it to work while they get a separate system for the upper floors, and the way we worked it out (after getting some quotes) it will be worth it for each of us and i'l finally be able to have proper temp. heating.



now this is why i insist on cutting the pipes so that i can do what your suggesting, but again unfortunately it can only be done after i have full control over the system.



so my options are either leaving it the way it is (no way!) or having 2 totally separate systems, so keeping half the steam system for the bottom floors seems to be the best option right now.



i hope this explains the situation, and why i insist on cutting the pipes.

so as of now balancing the system is not an option but if you think cutting the pipes is not either, then please let me know because i do not want to get stuck without heat!



p.s. we've had plenty plumbers check out the system over the years and that's why they are so convinced. also i know i should tell them "just try" but they're being very stubborn and afraid that "something" will go wrong and we'll be stuck without heat.

Steamhead

Obviously

you have not had the right people work on that system. Plumbing and steam are two very different things- the only thing they have in common is they use pipes. You wouldn't go see a doctor to have him fix a problem with your car, would you?



Where are you located? There has to be a Steam Man near you...................

The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

I was not just talking balancing...

But giving each unit owner thier own thermostats while retaining the steam system.  Isn't this what everyone wants.....thier own thermostat(s)?

ch352

my mistake

I used the word "plumber" as a lack of a better one, but i must say that yes some of the people we had here did not know much, while others though were real steam pro's, but i'm sure there are things they missed too (we’re all human) and that's why i'm willing to give it a try however only after i have the ability to do so...

I’m located in Brooklyn and if there's someone you recommend that really knows his stuff then yes please, I’ll be happy to speak with him and see if he can help.

thanks

ch352

It’s just not up to me!

to Steam Whisperer,

I do understand we’ll have that and that is what we want but

1) My partner like a said before is just not letting me do it so as much as i would like to, i just do not have a choice.

2) At this point both of us really want separate bills as well.

Steamhead

PLENTY of Steam Men in Brooklyn

go here:



http://www.heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/NY

The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

I understand where your coming from....

I just wanted to make sure that you and your partner knew the  complete consequences of this change.   Unless you are spittting the steam system, the consequences will be potential poorer control of the heat, higher costs, and, if putting in forced air, potential air quaility issues, fire safety issues, drafts, no radiant comfort from the toasty steam radiators etc.   Its also likely that you will see an increase in fuel usage for your unit, because ducted systems increase the heat loss of a structure (see below), and this will effect your unit too.  

A suggestion...... for now just shut off the radiators on the upper floors ( or cap the piping) and if possible reduce the boiler capacity to better match your half of the system.  Leave the pipng in place and either leave the radiators in place or store them.  Let your partner put in the separate system, run all the gas lines, etc (very expesive) and you can make upgrades to the steam (inexpensive).    This way, when your partner finds out how much more comfortable your unit is, he can easily convert back.   Iv'e been asked to resurrect complete systems that were replaced by forced air, and having the piping and radiators still in place makes it an affordable propostion.

Report of ductwork leakage and increase in heat loss of homes  [u][size=12][color=#0000ff]http://www.ornl.gov/info/reports/1991/3445606042546.pdf[/size][/color][/u]

 

 

From: http://www.energysavers.gov/your_home/space_heating_cooling/index.cfm/mytopic=12530

Specifically, AFUE is the ratio of heat output of the furnace or boiler compared to the total energy consumed by a furnace or boiler. An AFUE of 90% means that 90% of the energy in the fuel becomes heat for the home and the other 10% escapes up the chimney and elsewhere. AFUE doesn't include the heat losses of the duct system or piping, which can be as much as 35% of the energy for output of the furnace when ducts are located in the attic.

 

 

[u][size=12][color=#0000ff]http://oikos.com/esb/28/duct_losses.html[/size][/color][/u]

 

http://oikos.com/esb/44/forcedair.html







Keep the options open for both of you.

ch352

Great idea

thanks for your suggestion Steam Whisperer sounds like a good idea (if my partner agrees of curse.....), but when you say "reduce the boiler capacity to better match your half of the system" is that really possible without extra high bills and boiler going on/off to often, or do you mean like just for a short while until he gets the message?



about a local steam man, i spent too much time and money on the wrong guys, so i really want to be sure this time, that i'm getting someone good! but how?.......

The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

Reducing boiler capacity...

some boilers can be adjusted, others not.   As a general rule of thumb (IMHO), most boilers are about 80% bigger than they need to be to start out with, so only running half the system could be difficult.    However, a good steam man can tell you what could be done.  Too bad you're not in the "City of big shoulders",  I could help you out directly.

ch352

well

Thanks for all your help, and when g-d willing i do get around to fixing up the system if it gets complicated I'l probably be right back here.....

j a_2

Plumbers

I  am located in the Boston Mass. area and here in our state, boilers  be it steam or hot water, must be installed by a lic plumber or gas fitter...And for many good reasons....Safety being the number one priority...So a generic statement about doctors and car mechanics vs plumbers and steam guys, is in my opinion inappropriate...personally I know of many talented plumbers that do install steam boilers and with great success...That statement may cause homeowners to look elsewhere to install there gas steam boilers and I don't think that is what we want..Those of us that do install steam boilers gather at any and all the training available and have for many years..When Dan comes to our area and usually does for all the local trade shows epically the ones sponsored by gas networks and NATIONAL GRID his class is filled every time with PLUMBERS....ja

RobG

To JA

I am sure Steamhead meant no disrespect about plumbers. A better analogy would be: You would not go to your family doctor for heart surgery, you would go to a cardiologist. Yes they are both doctors, but the cardiologist specialty is the heart. Some plumbers specialty is plumbing, some hydronics, some gas and some can do it all. You just have to find the right one.

Rob 

j a_2

plumbers

I agree with your analogy...I just felt the need to correct that statement, due to the way it came across, to me...This site is about helping people...and it does a great job of that...I go to a lot of customers houses, and am often impressed by there ability to ask the right questions, when I tell them I am impressed, with there basic knowledge, they tell me they got it from this site...ja