Click here to Find a Contractor in your area.
Welcome! Here are the website rules, as well as some tips for using this forum.

If you've found help here, check back in to let us know how everything worked out.
It's a great way to thank those who helped you.
Need to contact us? Visit https://heatinghelp.com/contact-us/.

Commercial install

HenryHenry Posts: 914Member
Here is one of our larger replacements in a 71 unit luxury condo in downtown Montreal. It is a Smith G-28-HE-9. This one was done last fall after the previous boiler failed due to 1) improper piping that kept pulling the boiler apart and 2) too much chemical that ruined the faces. We did three steam heating boilers last winter that were killed by chemicals!

Comments

  • Jean-David BeyerJean-David Beyer Posts: 2,629Member
    I am curious.

    Did that gas pressure regulator right by the burner come with the boiler, is it required by the code, or did you just put it in because it was the right thing to do?
  • HenryHenry Posts: 914Member
    Regulator

    It is part of the burner. We reused the existing modulating "Power Flame" burner but reduced the pressure to 2 pounds. The existing Vacuum system is well, not functioning. The panels are shorted out. So the modulating valves for the two zones are modulated manually. We have a heat timer quote in to reestablish automation of the vacuums pumps, valves and boiler precession but due to the discovery of a leaking 5000 gallon underground oil tank, has been put off!
  • gerry gillgerry gill Posts: 2,951Member
    why is the

    steam takeoff in between the risers?
    gwgillplumbingandheating.com

    Serving Cleveland's eastern suburbs from Cleveland Heights down to Cuyahoga Falls.

  • jim s_2jim s_2 Posts: 112Member
    Piped wrong

    As was stated earlier your steam supply should be after the two risers out of the boiler,not in between.

     Why bother with a swing joint when it`s all welded?
  • HenryHenry Posts: 914Member
    Certified instruction manual

    Does ANYBODY read the manufacturers certified instruction manual? This is the way Smith wants this boiler piped. The swing joints prevent the boiler sections from being pulled apart as was the case previously. Each boiler company has a slightly different aproach to near boiler piping. We READ their manual and instruct our crews to FOLLOW the manual. We also have our own minimum standards regarding piping and pump installations.
  • HenryHenry Posts: 914Member
    Welding

    All piping over 2 inches, is welded in our steam installs! We might cheat sometimes when our welders and subs are busy, but only on hot water systems and only install with Victaulic systems! There will be NO threaded joint over 2 inches!
  • ChrisJChrisJ Posts: 9,906Member
    Smith

    Henry,



    With all due respect where in the manufactures instructions do you see them telling you to install a bull head tee in between the two risers?



    We read the instructions,  did you?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Paul48Paul48 Posts: 4,492Member
    edited June 2012
    That

    piping does not agree with the manufacturers instructions and the instructions clearly say, swing joints must be employed. Risers and headers are called out as NPT,which indicates threaded pipe.
  • I agree...bad piping

    Even Smith's piping leaves something to desired for swing joinnts. 



    Only one Cast iron boiler manufacturer that I am aware of allows welded piping for mulitple riser connections to headers....and I see their boiler's failing all the time at the connections between the sections. 

    I am sorry, Henry, but that boiler should be repiped with threaded joints at the riser connections and with the system take off after both supplies.   It is shown in the directions. 
    The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

    Chicago's Steam Heating Expert





    Noisy Radiators are a Cry for Help
  • clammyclammy Posts: 2,257Member
    stirring the pot

    I have been shying away from posting for a while but as others have stated that boiler looks incorrectly pipe to myself but in defense of henry i will take the other postion which is that i have seen boiler piped exactly as henry has pipe that one and they where piped that way about 100 years ago and suprise suprise it works perfectly even with 2 take offs taken off between the risers wonder never seise.Even myself once had to resort to taking my system take off between the riser on a larger weil 680 series because i would have had to repipe a very large percentage of the 4 inch main and would have had to thread in place .At the time i had no choice it was a emergency replacement in the winter did i have any issue due to the way it was piped no because i had like 4ft of vertical rise off my header there where no issue.To jump on the other side of the fence i use threaded pipe and fitting up to 6 inch and will work on some 8 but beyond that it is welded .As for weld headers  evey one i have ran into in larger residental over 1 mbtu that was weld  over time did cause the boiler to crack but each one was missing any compainion flanges which will reduce stress ,welded headers that i have seen that did not crack the boiler contained at least 4 compainion flanges on the near boiler piping just from the risers to the boiler header  then either unions or compainion flanges for the reurn and systenm connections .Not to pick sides i would have to say i see more larger boilers piped the way henrys is in compairsion to the correct way whats wrong what right who knows peace and good luck clammy
    R.A. Calmbacher L.L.C. HVAC
    NJ Master HVAC Lic.
    Mahwah, NJ
    Specializing in steam and hydronic heating
  • Hap_HazzardHap_Hazzard Posts: 1,349Member
    Don't mind me.

    Munch munch munch.
    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S
    3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
  • Paul48Paul48 Posts: 4,492Member
    It

    may work just fine. It will also provide very wet steam. It is a textbook "no-no" for near boiler piping.
  • SteamheadSteamhead Posts: 13,125Member
    And here is the piping diagram

    assuming the attachment works:
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/all-steamed-up-inc
  • HenryHenry Posts: 914Member
    piping

    Swing joints are required so as not to pull the boiler apart. There are also flanges on each outlet. To have the the riser going to the headder after the last outlet and not in between the two was not a choice. Some 6 feet above is a headder that devides the North and South parts of the building. To have to connect from the back would entail two days of welding which in winter, one does not have the luxury.With so much rise, the steam is ok even when the motorised valve modulate with the vacuum system. The system is completly silent.



    I have done two to four such replacements nearly every year for over 36 years either during the winter or right after. Sometimes, one has to adapt to the situation. So far, I have never had to go back to repipe a system nor had a complaint about our instals. If something breaks like this Fridays Carlin on a steam boiler installed in February, we take the pill and make sure it running even if we can't get warranty from the manufacturer. The boiler produces hot water for a golf course.
  • all that was needed....

    to offset the system take off was to add one elbow and about 2 feet of pipe to offset the supply piping toward the back of the boiler.  You may also have needed to move the rear boiler supply connection forward.  I've done this a number of times and it only takes another hour or so.
    The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

    Chicago's Steam Heating Expert





    Noisy Radiators are a Cry for Help
  • ChrisJChrisJ Posts: 9,906Member
    Not impressed

    As a homeowner what I essentially just read was "I didn't do it correctly because it would take too long".



    I'm not impressed and I know there are a few pros on this forum who would NEVER have taken this approach.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • SteamheadSteamhead Posts: 13,125Member
    Like this

    which is on a much smaller boiler, but you get the idea. This was a job I did with my former company, and Gordo and I brought this customer to All Steamed Up. 
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/all-steamed-up-inc
  • SteamheadSteamhead Posts: 13,125Member
    edited July 2012
    Why?

    We do it with threaded pipe all the time. Here are some examples. These pics go up to 4-inch, and we can go larger if needed. 
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/all-steamed-up-inc
  • Paul48Paul48 Posts: 4,492Member
    edited July 2012
    deleted

  • Paul48Paul48 Posts: 4,492Member
    edited July 2012
    deleted

  • TeachMeSteamTeachMeSteam Posts: 128Member
    Let's all be nice

    I know Henry was very haughty and belittling when he said "Does anybody read the instruction..." some people might say what ChrisJ said was justified...but let's try to respond to an attack by simply turning the other cheek.



    otherwise, threads can start getting pretty heated...
This discussion has been closed.

Welcome

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!