PVC Venting Banned

CMadatMe

Didn't want to add this to that long thread but the attached is a sign to come.

Steamhead

About time

they prohibited non-listed venting material!

TonyS

Does this include

warm air furnaces?

CMadatMe

Sounds

Like that's a big yes to me. Called up the building dept but everyone was out. Was told to call back in the morning.

kcopp

so does this.....

mean that PVC vent replacing on all those boilers and furnaces is not far behind.... like the Plexco/ Ultravent fiasco of 15 yrs ago?

Mark Eatherton

Doubtful...

PVC hasn't experienced the same levels of failures that PlexVent did.



I find it interesting that a manufacturer and rep agency are capitolizing on the AHJs decision. I wonder how much influence Mr George's article had on their decision.



IMPO, looks like a Chicken Little kind of deal... If we're going to start recalling "allegedly defective" venting systems, they'd better start with single and double wall metallic flue pipes. There are a LOT more documented failures of those systems that resulted in death than there are documented PVC failures that resulted in death...



And have you ever seen what happens to those flexible aluminum vent liners? Now THAT is a HUGE debacle that is in need of total recall.



I think the whole PVC venting issue is and was blown out of proportion. Almost as if there was some kind of bet between code writers to see if they could make it a big deal... Pure conjecture on my part. Because IF it were really that big of a problem, we here at The Wall would have been aware of it a LONG time ago...



Just my opinion backed by 30 plus years of field experience.



ME

Steamhead

I think the difference is

that the aluminum liners and other metallic pipes are listed for that purpose, and have been for decades. PVC is not listed and probably never will be- the manufacturers get to sell all that PVC without incurring any liability, so why should they change?



We all know that the use of listed materials doesn't prevent failures- as happens with aluminum liners installed in chimneys that formerly served coal- or oil-fired equipment (can't fix stupid!)- but it does make a difference if a failure does occur and the case goes to court. I believe in the Lofgren case, one of the first issues was whether or not the PVC was listed for venting, correct?

Mark Eatherton

We will never know for sure Frank...

The Grand Jury case is sealed. The civil case filed by the survivors is the typical shot gun approach. I've not heard the finer details of the civil trial, and I seriously doubt we will ever hear those details. Generally speaking, if and when resolution is reached, the parties will ask that all records be sealed for perpetuity.



I hear what you are saying regards to "listed" devices, but if I install a listed product (aluminum liner for example) and God forbid, someone dies due to the liners failure, what good is that listing going to do for me? Based on what I saw with the Goodyear Rubber trials, I can tell you that it had Z E R O impact. Is the listing agency going to show up and help defend me? Is the manufacturer going to show up on the defense team?



Don't hold your breath... You will be very lonely even if you do properly apply a "listed" product.



The process of getting a product listed is very money intensive with code authorities, and approved testing agencies bringing in mega bucks.



In the case of PVC, it's a little late to close the gate. The cows are running amuck... There are off shelf solutions, and I don't think recalling all existing installations is one of them.



Education and inspections are key.





ME

Robert O'Brien

Given

Given the relatively low cost of PP,is the use of PVC worth it,even if allowed by AHJ?

Steamhead

Typical

so we'll never know how it was resolved, and the lawyers are waiting to pounce on the next guy who could have protected himself if he knew. Welcome to America.



I don't remember much of the Goodyear case, except that the product itself was defective. But one would think, since a civil case is based on a "preponderance of evidence" rather than "beyond reasonable doubt" as in a criminal case, that the contractor's use of listed materials installed according to Codes and instructions would tell in his (or her) favor. Obviously in the Lofgren and Ocean City cases, this didn't happen >:(

Henry

Plastic venting

As a voting member  of B149 and on 7 subs, I can say that of all Cat IV venting, ABS and PolyPro are the best followed by PVC and CPVC and only then Al29-4C! PVC S636 ULC certified is no other than sch40 PVC relabelled!  It is up to YOUR AHJ to apply NFPA54 and modify local rules for certified venting material. There is no question that ABS is better for temperature than PVC. PVC sch 40 meets 636ULC. PP venting with a coating does much better. I have done tests in Germany to see the possibility of PP meeting S636 standards. It does and surpasses S636!  Al29-4C has leak issues. There are now alternatives.



The failures that we have encountered were ALL due to the installer or the equipment. It was never the fault of the venting material! Properly installed according to the certified instructions of the appliance manufacturer's I&O manual, one does NOT have a safety issue!



In my home, I use PVC venting for many, many years. In the lab, ABS pweformed better than SCH 40 PVC. It only deforms at 217F.

Steamhead

However, as has been said before

S636-ULC is a Canadian standard, which has not been adopted in the U.S.A. So unless and until that changes, PVC/CPVC/ABS is not a listed venting material in the States.



Frankly, the likelihood of that change appears minimal. I don't have any figures on this, but I have a hunch that the amount of this pipe sold for use in combustion venting is small compared to that sold for use as DWV piping. Pipe manufacturers would have to conclude that the increased risk of liability would not be as bad as the slight drop in sales they would see if it were outlawed for venting. 

zacmobile

PP 636

Henry, why did you have to go to Germany to test PP? It has been 636 listed for a while now.