Home ownews/mod cons

j a_2

To  all home owner's considering mod/cons...{High efficiency gas heating }..I am interested in hearing what you think are the 10 questions  you feel are the most important when selecting a contractor, to install your new unit...Then I would like to hear from contractors what they feel the home owner should ask..Please, Dans rule is not to speak of pricing so leave that out..My reason, is to help...Remember,  there are no dumb questions..   After selling and installing for 30 plus years   I  learn every day..... Thanks  ja   Now I will post as long as I can pass the math lol

Steve Whitbeck

Not what questions but Who to do the job.

I would suggest to every homeowner to call the local distributor for the brand of boiler and ask who they suggest to install it.

The local distributor will know who is qualified to install it and who isn't. If you don't know who the distributor is call the manufacturer and they will give you the name and #.

Steve Whitbeck

oops

Paul48

As

a homeowner I would be afraid that calling the distributor would get me a short list of those contractors that owe them money.Unfortunately, those that install a lot, don't always do the best job, and that's what the distributor sees.....volume. I mean no disrespect to those distributors that run a 1st class operation, but there are shady businesses in all areas.

     I've always found it amazing, that people will read the directions for a game of Monopoly but sit down at a BlackJack table with no clue as to how to play, and put their money on the table. Knowledge is power, for any work you're having done on your home. All the resources you need are right in front of you. Put down that mystery novel and read the installation and operating manual of the boiler you are considering buying (with your hard-earned money). If you don't understand part of it....come to a forum like this, and ask for someone to explain it for you.

Jean-David Beyer

I am a homeowner who got a new mod-con May 2009.

I started my search in the fall of 2008. At the time, all I knew was I wanted to get rid of my almost 60 year old GE oil fired boiler and get a high efficiency gas one. I did not even know that mod-cons existed.



When I heard of them, I thought condensing was a great idea, and did not know that modulating and outdoor reset would make much difference to either comfort or expense. Luckily I discovered this site, but not quite soon enough.



 I surveyed the nearby contractors, several of which I knew were not much good (previous experience when getting two gas burning furnaces), and selected one that we had good results from. This turned out to be a mistake. They had been too successful and had expanded in size that they were no longer able to manage their business. I imagine they are in no danger of going out of business.



10 questions?



1.) Do they know how to do a heat loss, and are they willing to do one? Mine paced two sides of my house, counting his steps, and used that to determine my heat loss.



2.) Have they really been trained to install and maintain what they sell? They all claim to, but clearly, while some have one technician so trained, you do not always get that one when they come for service.



3.) If they sell you a mod-con, do they know how they work? Mine said that outdoor reset does no good. I bet that is true if they install a mod-con so oversized that it runs at minimum firing rate even on design day and cycles rapidly all the time.



4.) Do they know how to read? Have they ever read the installation manual? Recently? Do they understand it? Are they willing to follow it? Do they know more about this than I do?



5.) Do they have service contracts? What does the contract say? Will they do what it says? Does the contract say they will follow the manufacturer's recommendations.



6.) Do they have a digital combustion analyzer? Do they know how to use it? Is it calibrated frequently enough? Are the sensors replaced often enough? Do they know how to interpret the readings? Do they know what to do if the readings do not agree with the manufacturer's specifications? Do they use it every time they come for service?



7.) If they use PVC vent pipes, will they chamfer the ends, clean the pipe, apply primer correctly and glue them together correctly? Will they slope it the right amount and in the right direction?



8.) Do they know how to measure the pH of the boiler water? Do they know how to measure the concentration of anti-freeze (if used), inhibitors, etc.? Do they do that? Do they know what to do if the measurements are off?



9.) If they have open up the boiler, do they come with the necessary gaskets, seals, etc.? If parts must be routinely replaced, do they bring the parts with them on annual service calls?



10.) Are they willing to test the pressure relief valves and other safety devices (e.g., LWCO)?





Trouble is, you have to find this out by prayer and intuition. There is no point asking the salesman for the contractor.

j a_2

Wow

In my opinion, those are great questions...and very helpful     ja

Steve Whitbeck

Paul

I didn't say supply house I said DISTRIBUTOR ( the company that sells to the supply house) The distributor will KNOW what installer knows what they are doing.

And what installer owes the supply house money will not change the answer from the distributor

They know this by the phone calls they get for advise and help with service problems. Even the expert calls for tech support. The company that calls for answers to stupid questions is NOT the company YOU want installing YOUR boiler.

Jim Pompetti

Mod/cons

1. anyone you hire should do a heat load.

2. Most manafactures have poor instructional classes . One of the best is BUDERUS.

3. Reset is a must or any boiler.

4. I would HOPE instruction are read before the install. But once I was asked to leave a house if I neeed the instructions

5. Not important if they have service contracts .

6. Combustion analizer are a must. And make them show it to you.

7. Unless you hire a moonlighter , they will do.

8. I don't know about most manf. Buderus comes with test papers.

9.Routinely replace parts . Since there are soooo many pieces of equipment . No one can have everything.

10. All safety equipment needs to be tested annually ,not just at start =up.

Jean-David Beyer

there are soooo many pieces of equipment . No one can have everything.

4. I would HOPE instruction are read before the install.



I assumed that was a given. But my former contractor's service men clearly had never read the manual, and could not have been factory trained. They did not know how to turn off warm weather shutdown (in the manual), so they could not fire the boiler. They did not know how to make it run at high fire and at low fire to do combustion testing. The first contractor had no combustion tester. My current one had to be requested to bring one several times, and did so only when I called his boss. He did not really know how to use it and did not know how to find the combustion adjusting screw that is in plain sight in the manual.



6. Combustion analizer are a must. And make them show it to you.



If I were what I assume is a normal customer, I would never have heard of a combustion analyzer,  what it is for, and why it is important to use it at least once a year.



9.Routinely replace parts . Since there are soooo many pieces of equipment . No one can have everything.



No, but when they come out to do my annual service, and I have a service contract with them, they know what I have, they presumably read the manual, so they know the stuff that should be replaced every year. So they should have those pieces of equipment on the truck when they come. My current contractor does, but my former contractor (the installing contractor) did not; that is one reason they are my former contractor.. The contractor's employee came out for the first annual service and did not even know if my boiler was oil or gas until I told him. He should have been able to figure that out by looking at it before he even opened it up. For example, by the gas supply and lack of oil supply pipes.



10. All safety equipment needs to be tested annually ,not just at start =up.



Exactly. That is just what my installation manual says, not in fine print.



They do not do it. My first contractor said gas boilers do not need routine maintenance, just fix problems as they come up. Yet they did offer a service contract, that I read. Basically, it gives a small discount on parts, priority on days when everyone calls at once. But does not say what they do. Well, the price was only two digits. My current contractor charges quite a bit more for the service contract. His contract says they will do all the stuff in the manual. I estimate it would take me an entire afternoon (assuming I had the parts), a combustion analyzer and the training to use it. It takes the contractor about 2 hours to do it and he comes with an assistant. No way that can be done for under 3 figures. Neither contractor will test the pressure relief valves or the P-T relief valve. They say they never close if you test them. It seems to me in that case, they should bring the replacement valves I need when they come. Why would I want to run with a defective relief valve to save the price of a valve. The price of a valve is so much less than a new boiler, a new house, and a funeral -- especially all at once.

j a_2

Relief Valve

Worse yet, what if they did not put in the isolation valves  supply/return..How then do you replace the valve...pull some kind of a vacuum or drain and  refill..That was a good point....Could get a little wet  ja

Steve Whitbeck

Heat loss

How do you guys do a heat loss on a 30+ year old house without cutting it apart to find out what the R value is of the walls, doors, windows, etc...

I would say that YOU GUESS. You use your best judgement.

So if I take a square foot measurement and look over the house, wall thickness, windows, doors, attic insulation, etc... and then use my best guess - what is the differance. I have yet to get it wrong and I have been doing it that way for 40 years.

I do know how to do a heat loss and do it on every NEW house that I bid and install.

 

j a_2

common sense

OMG, Steve, you use common sense and 40 years experience as a heat loss..The poor desk guys just flipped out...I wonder if there is a common sense program, for them..I could see if the manufactures made a line of boilers with ratings every 1k btus but I don't see that. Most jump 20k or more..ja

Jean-David Beyer

isolation valves

There are enough isolation valves on my system. Not as many as I like, but enough so if you think about it, you can isolate the relief valve on the boiler and the one on the indirect. Separately.

Jean-David Beyer

How do you guys do a heat loss on a 30+ year old house without cutting it apart

My installing contractor paced the width and length of my house and perhaps calculated the heat loss from that. He recommended a 105,000 BTU/hour boiler.



I calculated the heat loss three different ways. The most accurate used the Slant/Fin program. It came up with about 30,000 BTU/hour. Since the smallest boiler in the product line was 80,000 BTU/hour (input), that is what I got.



I did not cut the building apart, but I knew the walls were 2x4s on 16-inch centers. The inside walls are real plaster on what was called rock-lath. Looks like drywall. There were "builders batts" in there. I found that out years ago by drilling holes in the walls from the inside and groping around with bent coat-hanger wire. I had the walls filled with foamed urea-formaldehyde. Upstairs there was a little fiberglass, and I had over 6 inches more blown in on top, and lots more of the paper-backed fiberglass fastened in on the accessible parts.



The windows were all new Marvin double-pane argon filled opticoated ones. I know the R value of those windows. I think my measurements are certainly good enough that the boiler I got is the best (in that product line) for me, though it is about twice as big as it should be. I might get by with a separate  electric hot water heater if it had an H stamp and outdoor reset. Perhaps. But I am glad I did not think of it.



I think if I can do it well enough to size a boiler, then a professional could do it, perhaps better than the original contractor.



My calculation was not accurate enough to use in setting the reset curves though. I had to do that by trial and error and that took a lot of time because I could not adjust the outside temperature. ;-)

Steve Whitbeck

common sense

Like I said you can't get any more accurate guess than I can with my guess,

Without cutting the house apart You have no idea how the house is built. You don't know how much insulation is in the walls or how much it has settled. You don't know if there is a vapor barrier.

You plug your guesses into your heat loss program ( I have the Right J program from Wrigthsoft) and what comes out is based on YOUR guesses.

How is your best guess any better than mine. Remember MINE is based on many many performed heat losses on many different buildings.

Jean-David Beyer

How is your best guess any better than mine.

I do not know if your best guess is better than mine. Having spent 25 years in computer programming and related work, I am painfully aware of the: Garbage-in Garbage out phenomenon. **** Hamming, on of the world's best numerical analysts once pointed out, It is better to be almost right than exactly wrong. So even if the Slant/Fin program is perfect, it cannot compensate for errors in my inputs.



What I do know is that my best guess was much better than that done by my installing contractor who did not even look at the Beckett oil burner and note the size of the nozzle. I could have told him it always provided enough heat, and therefore an input of 70,000 BTU/hour would surely be enough.



I do know that my best guess with the Slant/Fin program is much closer to the truth than the worksheets from Weil-McLain for boiler sizing, and that those worksheets were better that the estimate from my contractor. I know where I had to make educated guesses in the input to the Slant/Fin program, and since they were just guesses, that that would lower the accuracy of the results.



My impression is that if your many years of experience with many different buildings had been in my county of New Jersey, especially if some of it was with the buildings put up by the same developer, that your guess would be quite good, especially if you asked me about any insulation I added, any windows changed, etc. I am pretty sure there was no vapor barrier in the insulation of my house. On the other hand, the interior walls are real plaster on rock-lath, so the vapor penetrating the outside walls does so slower than if it was just drywall, and that most of the insulation in there is solid foam, not loose fiberglass, rockwool, etc. I am pretty sure my radiant on-grade slab is not insulated. And so on.



And, as you (or someone else) pointed out, you do not need a heat loss to the nearest 1000 BTU/hour anyway, just close enough to get the right size boiler, that do not come in that fine amount in ratings.

CMadatMe

10 Questions

Why is XX your equipment of choice?



What makes you different from your competition?



Will you properly size my new boiler and provide me a heat loss calculation for my records?



While you are here today, will you be doing the installation?



Will you provide me 3 references of SIMILAR installations?



Is first year maintenace included in the installation price?



Will you do and provide the results of the combustion test?



In the case of a Mod/Con.. Will you include at no charge a checkup to fine tune the equipment as the westher gets near design conditions?



As far as the heat loss goes, I understand what Steve means. Having been doing them for 25 years you general know what size boiler fits. I think it is still good practice to do them and it gives your customer the comfort of knowing you did when you hand it to them.

Jean-David Beyer

Is first year maintenace included in the installation price?

With my boiler, the answer to that question was YES.



However, when they installed the boiler, they did not do a combustion test. Since I had read the installation manual, I asked them why they did not do it. They said they were tested at the factory, they looked at the flame, and said it was OK.



The clown who came for the first year maintenance did not even know if the boiler was gas or oil. He did not bring the gasket set needed when cleaning the fire side of the heat exchanger. He did not have a new igniter in case that needed replacement or the gaskets required after removing the igniter for inspection and cleaning. He had no idea how to operate the buttons on the control panel to do the needed tests, and had no combustion tester. He said gas boilers did not require regular maintenance, which completely contradicted the manufacturer's specifications in the installation and maintenance manual. I then tried to call the (large) company to rectify these problems. They never called back. I sent them e-mails that they never answered. I sent them a letter by certified mail, return receipt requested. No reply.  That company used to be a very good one. They have a few people that are good, but you can never be sure you will get one of them -- usually you cannot, even if you ask for them.



I then switched contractors.



So the YES answer was meaningless.

gennady

maintenance

on weil mclain utra maintenance kits for cleaning fire side of heat ex-changers sold by distributors, and this kind of maintenance is done on 3rd year of operation, not every year,

as per questions, the only one important is the price, and cheapest contractor gets the job.

Jean-David Beyer

this kind of maintenance is done on 3rd year

According to the installation manual of my Ultra 3, this is to be done done the first year, and every year after if there is much fouling of the exchanger at the end of the first year*. My current contractor does it every year under his maintenance contract. He even replaces the igniter every year even though the manual says to clean and inspect it every year and replace as required. They do not want to come back to replace it in mid season. They bring that maintenance kit. In fact, one year they called to postpone the maintenance because they had three kits on order and they had not come in yet.



_____

*Actually, it says:

"2. Determine follow-up maintenance and service needs based on the condition of the heat exchanger and condensate lines.



" a. If the heat exchanger shows substantial fouling or if the condensate lines show accumulation of sediment, schedule a follow-up service call to perform the first-year inspection again, sooner than the normal twelve months between."



Back when I was fighting with my former contractor who said gas boilers did not need regular maintenance, I talked with the W-M technical rep for my area. He said you might be able to skip annual maintenance of the fire side of the heat exchanger if the flue temperature when the boiler was running on high fire was low enough. But their techie did not have a way to measure the flue temperature because he had no analyzer, and he did not know how to get it into high-fire. Actually, with the Ultra 3, the boiler itself will do it if you know how to get the readout of flue temperature. It is trivial, but the technician has to have read the manual, and I do not believe this technician knew how to read.

Jean-David Beyer

cheapest contractor gets the job

That my be the usual procedure. But not mine.



But my former contractor charged $X for an annual service contract, where I switched to a better (not perfect) contractor who charges almost $3X, but promises to follow the W-M maintenance requirements. The former contractor refused to provide me such a contract. If we could post prices, I would tell what $X is, but it was so low I asked the technician what was involved. They allowed him 15 minutes for that service call, one that takes between one and two hours, or it would if he knew how to do it.

gennady

internal inspection

It is required to do special inspection for corrosion (not for cleaning) of heat exchanger no later than first 12 month. Other than that , if you read the manual, internal cleaning required if combustion analysis shows the need. Weil mclain had a recall for their aluminum heat exchanger



Correction Weil Wclain did not have recall for their aluminum heat exchangers.

gennady

maintenance

The purpose of initial internal inspection as well to check if contaminated air can enter combustion chamber and to cure this problem. It has nothing to do with routine maintenance, Air contamination also contributes to clogging of the trap and condensate piping,

Mark Eatherton

Recall??

Gennady, you said "Weil mclain had a recall for their aluminum heat exchangers," Can you point me to the recall? I checked their web site and didn't see anything regarding the recall you mention. I have a few customers out there with these boilers and I am responsible for their maintenance, and want to keep them aware of any recall issues.



Here is a link to W/Mc's recall site.



http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/product-recalls.aspx



Thanks



ME

j a_2

HEAT LOSS

Heat loss, is like one of the first things we learned  in this business....Years back you went to the supplier and asked for help if you needed it...Now you just sit with your lap top and don't have to waste someone else's time...Or you can do it by hand using the form by  I=B-R...They do teach that in there basic class..It gives you a basic understanding..It is my belief you owe it to all customers to do the heat loss and give it to them for there records if they want it...Some lending intuitions were requesting it prior to the o interest loan..I believe that has changed..

     As for the guy who thinks you need to cut up a house to do a heat loss, I do not understand that...Many companies make thermal imaging devices...I saw one in use and its awesome.The energy audit people use them in my area...No need to cut up the house.. Today it is very difficult on the younger families to make ends meet...I believe, what we do, is very important to all concerned.....

   As the 40 plus guy stated, yes I agree he can guess very close every time...I for one don't want my 40 year doctor guessing....ja

   

gennady

recall

You are right , it is not listed on their website, I have to correct myself.

Mark Eatherton

Thanks for the clarification...

ME

CMadatMe

Magic Potion

I think he may have been referring to the Weil service bulletin for adding the magic potion to coat the HX.

Jean-David Beyer

adding the magic potion to coat the HX.

That is Sentinel X-100 to be added to the boiler water to protect the water side of the HX. It does nothing for the fire side. It mainly controls the pH, but contains inhibitors too, if I remember  correctly. My original contractor would not put it in. My new contractor put it in without my even asking. I can no longer find the marketing bulletin on the W-M site, but it is still here.



Specified in: [url=http://www.heatinghelp.com/files/posts/973/W-M%20bulletin.pdf]http://www.heatinghelp.com/files/posts/973/W-M%20bulletin.pdf



It is in the boiler manual, pages 31 and 32.



http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/multimedia-library/pdf/weil-mclain-pdf/products/boilers/gas-boilers/ultra-series-3-ue/ug3_boiler_manual.pdf



Here is what Sentinel have to say about C-100:



http://www.sentinel-solutions.net/uploadedFiles/wwwsentinel-solutionsnet/resources_us/US_product_fact_sheets/PF_X100_2_US.pdf

Steve Whitbeck

heat loss

The problem with doing a heat loss on an old house and using any heat loss program - If you make a small change in just one setting it can make a 10 to 15% change in the final BTU heat loss. If you change a few settings just a little you can have large changes in the results.

I can make a heat loss come out to say just about anything and unless you know what you are looking at you won't even know that it is wrong. ( I have never and would never do this - I have NO need to lie to a customer)15

Even with a new house blue print You can do a heat loss and the builder doesn't do exactly what you entered - guess what - Your BTU numbers are wrong. Change a few windows, put the windows with the coating on the wrong side of the house, do the heat loss with spray in foam and the buyer has to cut corners and puts in batting. Your numbers are wrong.

D107

real-time heat loss

HO here. I have seen various threads over the years on the Wall about doing a real-time heat loss which seems about the most accurate way to measure. I can't recall the precise methodology but something like calculating the fuel usage against the hourly outside temperatures (and wind conditions? and degree of solar gain? day and night indoor temps?) minus hwh usage. So if you do this on a design day, a normally cold day, and on a shoulder season day, will that tell the story?



One problem with that might be this: you want to do a heat loss in order to decide what size new boiler to buy. If you do a real-time heat loss with an existing old boiler how do you factor in its being oversized and lower combustion and system efficiencies?

Steve Whitbeck

Heat loss

The existing heating system is not part of the heat loss. A heat loss is just an estimate of the real world BTU's needed to heat and cool a structure. What heating system you choose needs to have a BTU OUTPUT larger than the heat loss of said structure. Modulating boilers and furnaces that use outdoor reset IF dialed in properly will put out only slightly more BTU's than what is needed to heat the structure. Modulating A/C systems will speed up and slow down to maintain a given temperature.