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Viessmann Stirling heat/electrical generation...

Mark Eatherton
Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,839
Velly intlestink...



<a href="http://www.viessmann.com/com/en/press/press_releases/combined_heating_and_power/shk-107024.html">http://www.viessmann.com/com/en/press/press_releases/combined_heating_and_power/shk-107024.html</a>



ME
It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.

Comments

  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,839
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • gennady
    gennady Member Posts: 835
    micro CHP

    In my opinion, It has absolutely no future in USA. Keep dreaming. The cost of energy is subsidized and low, and it prevents new technology implementation in USA.
  • scott markle_2
    scott markle_2 Member Posts: 611
    net metering

    I love heat recovery but seems to me that micro-CHP is a net metering cheat. Thermal loads are up at night, when the grid is flush with power. What purpose would it serve to pay retail prices for electricity put on the grid when it's not needed. I'm not sure what the actual rules are on this, but if I was making these rules, I'd need a good explanation for how night time net metering advances the public good.



    Got to love Viessmann... they really invest in R and D. While I may not be sold on the concept, the sterling is a lot more convincing than a water cooled honda reciprocating internal combustion engine. Freewatt needs supplemental combustion for thermal, I'm going to assume that the Viessmann sterling system is a boiler that takes efficiency to a new level by utilizing waste thermal energy and mechanically converting it to electrical energy. Freewatt is a relatively low (compared to a combined cycle turbine) efficiency generator that recovers waste heat. The sterling system (I assume) is an efficient boiler that pushes the limits of efficiency by recovering the "wast" heat to spin the sterling.



    Lots of innovation going on at Viessmann, including hybrid boiler heat pump systems.
  • gennady
    gennady Member Posts: 835
    net metering

    net metering along with storage tank in CHP is a concept of decoupling heating and electric loads. The real goal is to keep electric meter at 0 reading, not make money from electric power generation. As per concept, Vitotwin is and mirror design to Freewatt. it also has a boiler as a part of the system. I installed 5 freewatt systems and find it be very good system. I will be happy to sell vitotwins as well, but again, those systems are not for US residential market
  • CMadatMe
    CMadatMe Member Posts: 3,086
    edited June 2012
    I Was Just

    On a job the other day with Viessmann and just talking to this man on the projects they are doing here in the US is just mind blowing. Colleges and University Campus in Maine being heated by wood. He was telling me of one project at a known university where they are using all the gray water and sewage and turning it into methane gas which is not only heating the place but being sold back to the utility. Heck the byproduct they end up with is mulch.



    They are an amazing company that is in my mind leaps and bounds ahead of everyone in the field.
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
  • scott markle_2
    scott markle_2 Member Posts: 611
    net nonsense

    Net zero needs to explain a few things to me. The grid is not a energy storage system. Net metering is an incredibly sweet deal. It amounts to taking away the problem of energy storage.



    The use of mathematical terminology (net zero) implies a kind of scientific authority, but it shouldn't take an engineer to understand that "counting" every electron a pv system makes is not playing fair with numbers. It's like clocking a gas meter to measure the load, collected vs. delivered.



    Solar overlaps with demand, but heating loads are highest in the dark. How can micro CHP benefit the grid?
  • gennady
    gennady Member Posts: 835
    net metering

    Generator burns gas and produces electricity and heat. electric and heating load of the house do not overlap each other at any given time, so system must have a place where it will keep extra heat and electricity. grid serves as a storage for electric power, it gets excess electricity and then gives it back to house when needed. generator is sized to average household consumption. on the heat side, storage tank does same. along with heating system. problem begins in the summer where there is not enough heating load. then there is an optional outdoor cooler. what customer gets is electricity for 1/2 price and free heat and hot water,

    I managed do installation with pool being heated by generator, 3 x1o ton AC ( installed water cooled condensers as a supplement to air cooled and started pumping heat from house into pool) lowered head pressure for compressors, cut electric usage and made CHP work year around. But this was done for fellow who had tons of money and was very upset with fact that pool heater was blowing cold air, and AC condensers were blowing hot air. Savings come as a nice thing to have, but not as a deciding factor. Nobody else showed interest to installation, except LIPA, who could not believe meter reading, and changed meter few times.
  • NRT_Rob
    NRT_Rob Member Posts: 1,013
    actually

    anywhere the grid has significant amounts of hydro, the grid can in fact be a storage medium. hydro gates close, water builds up to be released later.



    admittedly this may not apply everywhere.



    that said, energy storage is a solvable problem. environmental toxins, global weirding, and environmental destruction during resource extraction, energy security... not so much.
    Rob Brown
    Designer for Rockport Mechanical
    in beautiful Rockport Maine.
  • JohnHenry_2
    JohnHenry_2 Member Posts: 70
    edited June 2012
    How about

    Anywhere the baseload isn't wind or night time solar? Which is everywhere. That is unless there are enough home units to provide more excess power than the grid needs.



    Actually, home units overpowering the grid wouldn't be an issue as electrical power can, in effect, be stored by pumping water up to an elevated storage facility. The power then gets recovered by draining that elevated storage facility through water turbines. This is done all over the world. For instance, Austria buys cheap nighttime nuclear power from the Czechs, stores it in this manner and then sells full price power to the Germans during the day. It's a significant export for them.
    The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
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