New owner of steam system

JamieO

I just bought my first home and it has one pipe steam heat. The first time I went ahead with the blow down, there was so much sediment that it started plopping out after a while. Water came out eventually and ran clear after filling a bucket.



The house had been vacant since June (I moved in Feb 8) I'm wondering if this lack of blow down maintenance clogged the pigtail where the pressure gauge and pressuretrol are connected. The boiler pressure guage never reads below 4 psi. I tried to lower the pressuretrol because it was turned up to above 4psi, but then there was no cut in and no heat. Is there any other reason that the boiler wouldn't reach atmospheric pressure. Any help on a DIY fix would be appreciated.



P.S. I replaced all air vents with Hoffmans adjustables. I bought a new main vent too, but can't find an old one in the basement to replace.

BobC

Might be plugged

What make and model boiler do you have and how old is it? Pressure gauges don't age well, yours may not be accurate any more. It is possible that pigtail is blocked. After shutting the circuit breaker that feeds the boiler, disconnect the wires to it (make a sketch showing where they go to be safe, some have 3 terminals on them) and unscrew the pressuretrol from the pigtail. Try blowing into the pigtail to see if it seems clear, you should have little to no resistance when you blow into that open pipe. If there is a lot of resistance, remove the pigtail and clean or replace it.



If you take the cover off the pressuretrol you will see a metal lever that goes between the pressuretrol's diaphragm and the microswitch that controls power to the boiler. You should be able to move that up and down and hear a slight click from that switch (power still off), if you don't hear anything you should test the switch with an ohmmeter to see if it works as you move that lever. The pressuretrol may have failed and should be replaced if it has failed. If the pressuretrol appears ok, mount it back on the pigtail and wire it back up.



Post some pictures of the pressuretrol as well as the boiler and the piping around it so we can see what your dealing with.



Bob

Rod

Steam System

Hi- Welcome to the "Wall" and the world of steam heating! It sounds like there has been a complete lack of maintenance so you will need to check over everything. Some things you can do yourself and others, like the burner settings, you should get a pro in to check as they have the equipment and experience.  Bob has already suggested that we need more info about the system (boiler make and model - This can be found on the ID plate on the boiler)  Do you have the installation manual for the boiler?



Main Vents-  You need main vents!  I've attached a 1 pipe system drawing which shows where the main vents should be located on the system.  How does your system operate at the moment? Are all the radiators getting hot?



If you don't have it already,  I would suggest you get a steam book that is available in the shop section of this website. It's called "We Got Steam Heat!" Here's a link to it:

http://www.heatinghelp.com/products/Steam-Heating-Books/25/61/We-Got-Steam-Heat-A-Homeowners-Guide-to-Peaceful-Coexistence

It's written for the homeowner new to steam and is easy, humorous reading. In an evening or two of reading, you will be light years ahead in your knowledge of residential steam heating. This book pays for itself many times over.

- Rod

JamieO

photos

Thanks for the instructions. I'm going to try to see if it's clogged. I want to put a vaporstat in place of pressuretrol. Here are some photos. I think the spigot in the one picture might be the end of the main and possibly someone plugged it instead of putting in a new one. 



I hope these pics are sufficient. The boiler is a Weil-McClain E5 3 Natural Gas



The radiators don't heat all the way across and heating the house above 72 seems like a struggle as of now. There are probably a ton of things I need to straighten out, but I thought I would start with the pressure.



The boiler is 23 years old I believe.

JamieO

reading material

I bought The Lost Art and read it through. Just trying to apply it to my system now. Thank you for the welcome! I had an HVAC appointment to have some work done, but he never showed up and never returned my later calls. I wonder if there is anyone recommended near upstate (Auburn) NY for steam heat? 

Rod

Boiler Model

Hi-  I had a bit of a problem with your numbers at first so I "tweeked" your photo of the boiler plaque and got them from there.  You have a Weil McLain,  Type E boiler, Model E-6, Series 3  which produced an IBR rating of 440 sq.ft. of steam.  According to Weil McLain website the E Model,  Series 3 boilers, were built from May 1970  to August 1975.



Since this is a pretty old boiler (36 years plus) and from your description, it sounds like the maintenance has been pretty minimal, I would definitely be planning for a new boiler now or in the near future. Keep in mind it is a lot less hassle to replace a boiler during the summer months than in the depth of winter when the temperature is below freezing.



Glad to hear you have the Lost Art as that allows us to refer you to a page relevant to the discussion.  The radiators only heating part way across is typical of the spring and fall when the thermostat is satisfied before the radiator fully heat. 

   Picture wise I couldn't tell too much from your pictures other than you have some "interesting" piping.  Take some pictures of the boiler piping from farther back so that the boiler and piping are in the picture and also take these pictures from different angles around the boiler.  This allows us to trace out the piping so we can see where it leads. If we need to see detail we can always blow the photos up.  As for a steam pro, I think there is another homeowner, "Wallie", fairly near you and I'll see if I can remember who it was as he may have some ideas on where to find a steam man.

-Rod

Jamie0

Near boiler piping

My equalizer isn't piped into the end of the header like shown on many diagrams. It's piped at the base of the riser emerging from the boiler. Is this incorrect? I'm not even sure if what I have can be considered a header. It looks like there is just one riser coming up that splits into two directions via a tee to the mains. I'm also wondering why there is only one 2" riser tapped when they have a second one not being used. Shouldn't this boiler have 2 risers? Thanks so much.

BobC

They should have

They probably should have used both risers but at this stage of the game you pretty much have to go with what you have, messing with boiler piping that old in November can get interesting really fast.



Did you have any luck moving the pressure lower on your system? Pressuretrols do get balky if you try to operate them at to low a pressure, you won't really know where you are until you check the system with a low pressure gauge. The 0-30 gauge is pretty useless, you should consider adding a low pressure gauge to the system so you can what's really going on. http://www.gaugestore.com/products.asp?dept=1123 Most folks use the 33020  0-3 PSI model. It's not rated for steam but the pigtail will keep steam away from it. You still have to keep your high pressure gauge to keep the inspectors happy. You should also remove that pigtail and make sure it's not full of crap.



If you look at this picture of my new boiler you can see the 3PSI gauge has been added to a T off the pigtail and I moved the vaporstat from the old boiler to replace the pressuretrol that is stock on this boiler.



Bob

Jamie0

Near boiler piping

You were 100% correct on the clogged pigtail. The lwc was also all clogged and letting only a small stream of water through. I freed that up and now water gushes out freely when doing the blow down. I lowered the pressurtrol to .5 cut in from 5 (it wouldn't fire up under 5 psi with the clog). I have the low pressure gauge on my kitchen counter waiting for a friend to help me install it because the pipes are rusted together. I wanted it because I can't tell if the system actually builds enough pressure to reach the cut out, which could be bad I assume.



I recently installed a honeywell programmable thermostat set to the steam setting of 2 cycles per hour and now the radiators are getting hot all the way across, which seems like a step in the right direction.



I'm wondering if I should have the near boiler piping redone after this year. I'm trying to solve a very bad water hammer in the basement on (second cycle) steam start-up, which sounds like a cannon. It definitely scares my girlfriend. The pitch of the mains doesn't jump out at me as being the problem.

BobC

Fix first, re-pipe later

Does the boiler cycle on pressure before the thermostat is satisfied? If it does not, try setting the CPH on that new thermostat to one and see if that helps. water hammer indicates trapped water and the fact it's happening on a second cycle might mean some condensate is not getting back down to the boiler. The near boiler piping you have makes it even worse.



Use a level and check for a dip in the piping, old houses settle and usually not evenly. Then make sure all the radiators are sloped to encourage the water to flow back to the boiler. Can you identify what pipe is hammering?



Did you ever find a main air vent or a place to mount one? Most steam systems are happiest when you vent the mains fast and the radiators slowly. What do you have the Hoffman's set to? Try to correct as much as you can before getting into re-piping the boiler, it all has to be done anyway so do it upfront.



Repiping an old boiler can be risky because getting the pipes out can be a bear and you don't want to break anything. I don't know if you can get a pro to do it because they are not going to like any liability that might arise (you would have to get rid of any asbestos in the boiler area also). If you want to attempt it yourself start in the late spring and be prepared for having to replace the boiler if it comes down to it. There are people on the wall who have done it and they usually do a good job of it.



good luck,



Bob

Enreynolds

Out in Webster

JamieO:  I live out in Webster, a home owner with a little bit of experience with steam.  My Dad lives out in Clyde, so the old Auburn Mall was in my stomping grounds as a kid.  There are not many steam guys up in our neck of the woods, so I have been pretty much on my own to learn how to do it my self.  I suspect that you may be in the same boat.  I would be happy to give you a second pair of eyes, if you need it.  Good luck.

Eric

JStar

NY

I'll travel to upstate NY if needed, since there are not many companies in that area. At 4 hours away, a lot of emails and pictures would be necessary first! If you establish a good game plan here, but don't feel comfortable doing the work, I'll be available to help.

Jamie0

Taming my one-pipe steam system

Eric:



Thank you for your offer. A second set of eyes would be great.  You are correct about the scarcity of knowledgeable steam pros around CNY. Many haven't thought it's necessary to go through the trouble of installing a main vent. I believe the proper place for my vent (which is also sitting in my cabinet drawer) is shown in picture 3 and 4. I think possible the copper pipe between the iron pipes should be replaced with an iron pipe and 10 inch nipple connection. This spot is about a foot before the pipe drops down back to the boiler. It's actually very close to the boiler. Could this be the  correct spot even though it's so close to the boiler?



Joe: I'll keep you in mind for any major work, especially when it comes time to replace my boiler in the future. I appreciate it.



Bob C: You have a great setup. Where can I find your type of insulation?



I ordered a tstat with 1 cpm setting because the cheap one I have only goes down to 2. I identified the extreme water hammer problem radiator (my favorite one in the upstairs hallway) because it went cold after it killed my new hoffman vent. Hopefully the 1 cpm setting will allow more time for the pipes to drain fully.

BobC

insulation

That is 1" fiberglass pipe insulation, it's rigid insulation that handles steam temperatures just fine. Since that picture was taken I've insulated about 90% of the header and skimmed the boiler to get the water clean.



That insulation can be bought online but the shipping is a killer because of it's length, UPS and FEDEX classify anything three feet and up as oversized and triple the shipping rates. http://www.buyinsulationproductstore.com/servlet/the-457/Fiberglass-Pipe-Insulation-Pipe/Detail Make sure you know what diameter your piping is so you order the right size insulation and fitting covers. Also get some tape, duct tape will fail in a week.



Find a local distributor and save a few bucks.



Bob

Enreynolds

Yes, No, Maybe

Jamie:  Yes, the copper  should probably be replaced.  No, you cannot replace it with  a single black iron nipple.  You will have to put a union in so that you can thread into both of the existing fittings.  Maybe, that might be the right place for a vent, and if it is that would kill two birds with one stone, taking out the copper, putting in a tee for the vent(s), and getting everything back to black iron above the water line.  It is hard to tell from the pictures whether this is the place to put the vent, at least for me.

Enreynolds

Insulation

Jamie:  Try

Miner, G. H. Co., Inc.5923 Court Street Rd., P.O. Box 185

Syracuse, NY 13206

Phone: 315-463-6675

Fax: 315-433-9096

Jamie0

Updates

Over the weekend I did  some work:



1) I bought some Knauf  Earthwool™ 1000° Pipe Insulation from the distributor. Thanks for the lead on that. I'm still putting it on little by little.



2) I installed the 0-3 PSI WIKA Gauge. I have yet to read any pressure building from it, as the needle just wiggles a little bit. Maybe my system just doesn't build much pressure before the thermostat is satisfied?



3) I installed a tstat with the 1 CPH setting.



The CPH setting of 1 sadly didn't solve my water hammer. I've isolated it to my second floor hall radiator and shut it off. When the supply valve is closed, I have zero water hammer. This is very interesting because while the upstairs radiator is shut off, the same main (in the basement)  is still running steam past this riser to a set of 2 pipe convectors on the wall in my living room.  These convectors are nice and hot and quiet. All of the convector pipes lead to a wet return. I'll try to take some pictures. I fear that I may be out of ideas to remedy this.

 

nicholas bonham-carter

radiator hammering

could that riser have an offset to it as it goes up through the wall, or is it a straight pipe up?

if there is an offset, which may be pitched the wrong way due to settlement, then raising up the radiator with 3 quarters under each foot may re-pitch the offset.--nbc

Jamie0

Water Hammer

OK I'll check it. It sounds like a shotgun going off in the basement. 

Jamie0

Water Hammer

I'm thinking this horizontal pipe connecting to my radiator on the floor above may be my problem. I heard banging all last night since it's just outside my bedroom. It looks like it sprung a leak at some point for the previous owners. Could this be what's making such a loud hammer?

nicholas bonham-carter

Found the culprit?

That may be it, so check its level. As I said, raising up all feet on the radiator may get the pitch right.

Alternatively, you could repipe .straight down making the offset more sloped with 45deg elbows.--NBC