Boiler put in wrong 3 years ago - Do they owe me?

steve_25

I had a new single pipe steam boiler installed in 2009. It has worked fine over the past 3 years.



Recently, I've been reading Dan's books and found out the pressure on my system was way too high (over 6 pounds) so I tried to turn it down to 2. That caused a lot of spitting and carrying on, so I turned it back up.



Then I noticed the near boiler piping is supposed to be 2.5 inch, according to the manufacturer and installation manual - and these guys installed 2 inch. According to Holohan, that matters.



So the installers are willing to discuss it with me, but what should I really expect? How much can I hold their feet to fire (or steam) 3 years after the fact?



Thanks for your advice,

Jim Frac

BobC

It worked fine for the last 3 years

Jim,



What do you expect them to do with a boiler which has worked fine for 3 years since being installed?



If it's not piped per the mfgr's diagram you can ask if they would be willing to address this, but you really can't expect them to do cartwheels for you. If there are some real performance issues you could have a case but otherwise you have made your bed and lain in it.



Caveat Emptor is still pretty much the name of the game.



Bob

Paul48

?

What brand and type of boiler? How about some pictures of the near boiler piping? Let's see if we can't figure out why the pressure needs to be so high.

Steamhead

You paid for a proper installation

and the lack thereof has increased your fuel consumption. They need to make it right, at least as far as following the manufacturer's instructions. Oh, and no copper on the steam piping. 

Rod

Boiler Piping

Hi- Post some pictures of the boiler and the piping connected to it so we can see what you have.  Take the picture from back a ways so they include the piping. We can blow the pictures up if we need to see more detail.

- Rod

nicholas bonham-carter

spitting and carrying on

what exactly are these symptoms of spitting and carrying on?

one reason the pressure was set so high could have been due to bad main [not radiator] vents. this causes the fuel company to sell you more fuel, so the air can be forced out of the constipated little openings of the radiator vents, [was the boiler installed by the fuel company?].

see how they react to a letter pointing out the inconsistencies of the piping with the mfg's instructions, and see if they will make some sort of an offer to redo their mistake.--nbc

billtwocase

after reading his post

I see nowhere in there that his FUEL company installed this unit, and that it was set up improperly to consume more fuel. Did I miss an edited post?

Hap_Hazzard

Interesting Theory

I believe you were the first to suggest it here. I think the general inclination around here is not to suspect anyone's motives unless the evidence so demands, or, as Napoleon is supposed to have said, "Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence."

jimfrac

Pictures of 3 year old install

Hey Everyone-



I do not know how this post started under the user "Steve." I started the post and I have the boiler, it just showed up as his.



Anyway, here are some pictures of the boiler and the manufacturer's install book. Is there a way I can make them larger? It's picture #2 that shows the bushing they put in that reduced the pipe size.



I don't think they had any malice in this job, they just thought it would be ok with 2" pipe and that's what they had with them. I think their workmanship was top notch. The pipes are fitted and connected quite well. And they actually removed the copper piping that used to be there, so they knew that was wrong.



Like I said in my first post, I have been happy with the boiler for the past 3 years, the problem I have is that I have now found out that I could be happier by saving more fuel. I forgot to write down the brand and model, can anyone tell by looking at it?

jimfrac

And no, it was not the fuel company that installed it

A local Michigan heating and cooling contractor installed the unit. They've done a fair amount of work for me over the years. They are well-established and well-respected.



Look, here's what I'm thinking- I'm thinking if it were my company I would acknowledge my mistake even it was 3 years old, and I would fix it. However, I would be a little grumbly but still satisfied if they said they would fix it at cost.



Speaking of which, can someone estimate what it should cost? $200, $800, $1,500? more? Basically I need all the pipes that are insulated in picture 1 replaced.



One more thing, in another post someone asked about the valves. I've replaced them all. They are clean, functioning and proper. All the radiators are tilted properly back to drain correctly. All are heating well, even the farthest one. When I said the boiler was "spitting and carrying on at lower pressure" mostly I meant that several valves were spitting out water, and they're was a lot more banging. It's a lot quieter when the pressure is higher.



Incidentally, I am now running it at around 4.5 psi, which seems to be a balance between no water leaking from the valves, and a tolerable level of noise.

nicholas bonham-carter

Working fine?!?

If I had a new boiler, and it would require 4.5 psi to make it work, I wouldn't consider paying until the boiler operated at 2 ounces , with no spitting.

You may have replaced the vents, but are they large enough? The radiator vents should be small, like Hoffman 40's, and the main vents should be gorton 2's. A 0-3 psi gauge should register 2 ounces or less during the initial startup, as air is escaping. In your case you are burning a lot of extra fuel to push the air out of the way.

I suspect that a lot of water is being sprayed up the small risers into the mains, and then can be sprayed out the radiator vents. What the higher pressure does, is to close the vents off, sometimes permanently!

If I were the contractor, I would feel obliged, as steamhead says to make it right, even so long after the installation; but alas there are not many like him!--nbc10

Long Beach Ed

There's a lot here.

First of all, you can't be sure that the boiler is operating at four pounds of pressure. Pressure controls made these days are horribly inaccurate as are the 30 pound gauges supplied with boilers.  



The boiler must be installed according to the manufacturer's specifications.  Very often the manufacturer will intercede on your behalf to encourage the installer to repair his work. 



From a legal standpoint, where you live would dictate the statute in your state.  Here in New York, you would have recourse and could sue the installer.  If the installer doesn't want to make the job right -- and that means operating on a pound or less of pressure and piped as dictated by the maker -- you can probably go to small claims court. 

sreja

we had a similar situation

We had a similar situation a while ago.. Boiler was installed and most of it was done properly.  A couple of years later as I read Dan's books I realized the boiler had never been skimmed after some major work -- when I went to skim it I found that they the installers has never installed the skim port, despite it being clear in the installation instructions.



I suspect you may find your installer was like mine, who basically said "this is how we always do it, you don't need it, we know better than the generic installation instructions."



In the end we ended up paying for the skim port to be re-piped in -- it just didn't seem worth the fight given that there are so few steam experts in the area.



If we had caught it at installation time we absolutely would have insisted they do it then -- but I just didn't feel we were in a great position to do that 2 years after.



I think your idea of looking for a compromise -- asking them to do it at cost or at a big discount, and not trying to make them admit they were wrong -- which in my experience a contractor will almost never do, is a good way to go.

j a_2

yes they do

Hello,  In my opinion that is not a small mistake,and if they cant do it right the first time then they cant do, PERIOD...If I  were to pay someone a few thousand dollars to install a boiler in my home I would expect and demand it to be, at a minim, installed by the book....If that installer has to open the book and sit there and scratch his head, then get on the phone and start calling tech for help on a simple install then he should not be out here, taking peoples hard earned money.....I would call that company/.moonlighter and demand  he pay for a real heating contractor to reinstall that boiler correctly....I don't mean to sound so harsh, but we see this more often than not....As a homeowner please do some homework prior to hiring someone to install something in your home that has the ability to really cause you serious problems....Almost all manufactures offer training on there products...As well,  this site has great tools for the new, and old timers to keep updated on products.....they install.....When it comes to steam there is no better site.....Prior to hiring someone I  suggest get a list of 5 basic questions about what they about to install and see if they can answer them all, in detail,and if they cant I suggest tell them to move on....Thanks

Dave in QCA

As usual, it all depends.....

While I agree with everything that has been said in previous posts, I come at this from a little different perspective.  As a manager of an institutional facility, we frequently had building addition and remodeling projects.  All but the smallest projects were contracted work that was designed by and architect and/or engineer.  Plans and specifications were issued, bids taken, and contracts signed.  When the project was completed and signed off by all parties, the warranty period started.  This was almost always for a period of one year.  The warranty covered such things as defects, equipment failure, minor issues that may not have been caught in a punch list.  For these types of things, once the warranty period is over, it's the owners baby. 



However, the contractor and subcontractor were obliged to build the project according the the plans and specifications.  Issues that arise, where the plans and specifications were not followed, and for which there was no change order allowing the deviation, or shop drawings approved by the architect or engineer, the contractor is on the hook theoretically forever.



So, in this case, I think it comes down to whether there was a contract, and if there was, what the language said.  I have certainly learned from this message board, that the phrase, "to be installed according to the manufacturers minimum recommendations"  should be on every contract for a boiler installation.  Anything that is not according to the minimum recommendations should be specifically spelled out as exceeding the minimum recommendations, and exactly how and why the variation is being done.



In this case, I think the owner has a valid case in a court of law because the manufacturer's installation instructions say very clearly what the pipe size must be.  But unless language is in the contract stating that the manufactures recommendations will be followed, you may have a difficult time because the installer may be able to produce list of other installations as examples to illustrate that it doesn't make any difference and he may be able to establish that he is a highly competent and knowledgeable professional.  The installer will also be able to say that the system seemed to be working fine.  In court, it will come down to who presents the strongest case.



If it were my boiler, I would attempt to get the original installer to make it right.  I would even agree to pay a partial amount.  However, if the contractor will only do the work time and materials, with the billing at the full hourly rate, I would hire someone else who is competent, and never use the original contractor again.  I suspect that the contractor will value your business and try to work with you on this.  



Good luck and let us know how it turns out.

Paul Fredricks_3

my 2 cents

They should come back and do it right, and that includes getting the pressure down to where it should be.

My company certainly would, and we do when we run into things we've done wrong. Even many years later. There's no excuse for not doing the right thing.

Dave in QCA

I Agree that they should

Paul, I agree with you completely that they should make it right.  Hopefully they will.  Can the owner make them if they refuse?  Maybe.

Hopefully it will have a happy ending!

jimfrac

Thanks everyone

The installer has been in contact with me. Like I said, he's a large, well respected, long established area operation. I have a feeling he will ultimately do the right thing.



Good point about the contract. I have the original paper work and I will check itout.



I'll let you all know what happens.

jimfrac

LATEST UPDATE - Please offer more thoughts

Today I received the following email from the installer:



Jim

I discussed this with my lead boiler installer. He said that the instructions do state that 2.5” pipe must be used but that those instructions are shipped with every boiler from 112,000 btu’s to 280,000 btu’s as the castings of the water jackets are the same. This is not listed in the instructions but it was taught in a boiler class from Carrier by the Technical service advisor that the units do not need 2.5” until over 187,000 btu’s therefore the 2” pipe size is correct. They ship all boilers with the same instruction sheet.





What do you guys think of this? True? Why would that NOT be in the instruction book itself? Thanks again for your help.

BobC

Try skimming?

Are they willing to look at the issues you are having with the boiler? Lower pressure usually makes things better, the fact yours gets worse at low pressure indicates something else might be going on with the piping or water quality. Do you know if the boiler was ever skimmed after the installation? Is the water in the sight glass bouncing up and down?



A good skimming might solve some of your issues if there is a problem with contaminated water. What was the pressuretrol set to when it was operating at 6 PSI? Try to get him to address the issues you have been having with the boiler. There is no reason why the boiler shouldn't work at 2PSI or less and it will cut fuel consumption. A lot of people on this board have boilers working just fine at a few ounces of pressure.



Also what is the boiler rated for on the information plate.



Bob

Long Beach Ed

Call the Manufacturer

Simply call the manufacturer to confirm what the installer is telling you. 



I doubt they will state that their instructions are in error.  If so, ask them to provide a letter stating that 2" pipe is sufficient.   In a place like New York, you'd need such a letter for the inspector if the installation deviated from the instructions provided. 



Personally, I don't think you are being told the truth.  I do think 2" pipe will work in many installations, but I think Carrier advises that 2-1/2 be used. 

Hap_Hazzard

Seems a little odd.

Peerless ships the same instruction manual with every sized boiler in a given series, but they have a table showing what the recommended piping is for each model, so it's a little hard to imagine other manufacturers wouldn't make similar distinctions where appropriate. Just because they cover multiple boilers with the same manual doesn't mean they need to recommend the same piping for all of them.

Steamhead

That guy

doesn't know what he's talking about. And if someone trained him that way, which I doubt, that person is equally benighted.



The boiler manufacturer specifies certain minimum piping standards for a reason. They have tested their boilers to make sure they produce reasonably dry steam, and the steam piping around the boiler is one factor in drying out the steam. If the manufacturer determined that 2-inch pipe would work, they would specify it.



That boiler is a Dunkirk Plymouth Series 2, no matter what name is on it. Carrier, Bryant and others re-brand Dunkirk boilers to fill out their product lines. I've included the link to the I&O manual with the piping diagrams- they show the use of either one or two steam tappings, but nowhere do they sanction the use of 2-inch pipe. Personally, on the larger Plymouth steamers I would always use both tappings, to reduce the steam velocity.



They need to repipe it. Period.



http://www.ecrinternational.com/secure/upload/document/2435.pdf

jimfrac

The latest on the 3 year old boiler install

Well, first off, contacting Carrier is useless.



If you submit a question on their website, you get an email asking for more info and requesting you reply to said email. Then your reply goes into a black hole... Then you go back on the website and resubmit a new query with all information included, and you get a "cut and paste" reply from their customer service manual. You reply to that, and...black hole.



SO THEN, you just call 'em up and they won't answer the question anyway because "nobody in this office has hands on experience with boilers..." (Great.)



So you call Dunkirk. Dunkirk refuses to be nailed down to anything concrete. They say the book is a recommendation and that different steam guys may do something else if they know it will work. I said, "Well, it works but how do I know if it's at max efficiency?" They said to put an analyzer on it. I said, "Why doesn't the book say this is a recommendation?" They say they will only guarantee the boiler is working right if it's piped exactly according to the book, but again, it's a recommendation. In other words, they refuse to throw the installer under the bus.



So where I'm at now is that I plan to make the installer prove to me that I am running at max efficiency. If it's efficient and working well, I guess I'll live with it.



Thank all of you for your input. At some point I'll put a final post on this thread letting you know how it all ends up.

Long Beach Ed

"Maximum Efficency"

Proving that a boiler is "operating at maximum efficiency" is easier said than done.  



You can put instruments on the boiler and see that its combustion efficiency is where it should be, but that won't tell you the steam quality. 



This is why we follow manufacturers' recommendations.  They know best. 



Can a boiler provide quality steam when piped differently from the recommendations?  Certainly it can.  That depends on the system, and the installer's experience.



You are in a tough spot.  This is why a detailed contract and specifications are so important.  Only with those can the customer be assured that he's getting the quality that he's seeking.  

RDSTEAM

i promise you

your system is running like, for lack of a better word, garbage. steam velocity is probably through the roof!!! tell them your fuel bills have been outrageous and people are telling you the piping is the issue. tell them you demand a 3" drop header

Long Beach Ed

"Demand?"

How can he "demand" a 3" drop header when the boiler manufacturer doesn't even cover drop headers in their literature and won't cooperate with his plight? 



I don't think he can demand anything more than the manufacturer shows in its installation literature.