Not always mod/con

Henry

I got a gas bill from one of our customers today. The building is a duplex with 8 rooms on the second and 7 on the main with a bachelor. There was an existing battered atmospheric boiler. It was not worth all the money to install a mod/con. We installed a Raypak Residential 180,000 BTU two stage in P/S.

10 months since the install= 26% in gas volume savings! Payback less than 3 years!

The more one consumes, the more it makes sense to use mod/con, but not so in lower consumptions. It is NOT the boiler efficiency but the system efficiency that does the trick. Micro management of the energy use to heat is the trick, also. On large jobs, I will use several boilers to get more turn-down rates. While it can be slightly more expensive, the payback is so much greater. I am designing a system for a large apartment complex. The heating load is nearly 6,000,000 BTU and hot water 1,000,000 BTU with a 1308 G storage tank. I will have three mod/con at 2.5 million BTU replacing 2 3,050,000 heating boilers and 2 1,010,000 hot water boilers. The mod,com each have a 25 to 1 turn-down or 75 to 1 modulation to be able to micro manage the energy needs. I will also provide pool heating with one of them, replacing a 399,000 BTU boiler.



The building presently is using nearly twice per unit energy as per our local gas utility. We will be able to reduce the consumption probably by 2/3! Hopefully the projects passes the condo board.

meplumber

NIce Job Henry

I hope you get the condo job. If so make sure to post some pics.



Very good point on the efficiency of the system.

gennady

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nicholas bonham-carter

Condo board

...and hopefully the condo board will not shop your excellent design out to joe knucklehead heating inc!!!

It would be easier to deal with North Korea than with some condo boards!!!--nbc

Rich Davis_2

What kind?

What brand of mod/con are you using to make that many btu's, Just curious.

icesailor

Condo Boards and pricing:

Years ago, I read a column by Our Man Dan about one of his characters who priced jobs so he got them.My agd brain can only relate it this way.

We'll say for the sake of discussion that the job will be worth $1000,000. installed. Our man, Johnny In The Know, takes hours doing all the numbers and costs to compare the two systems, old and new. The results are impressive. He hands the information and plans to the owner(s) and they are impressed. They take all of Johnnies info to JoeThe Slug. Joe says he can do it for $85,000. They give the job to Joe The Slug but end up needing to get Johnny ITK to try to fix the mess. Johnnie who suffers from a serious case of wounded pride, and is busy with a more financially rewarding job and declines.  But next time.

Next time, Johnny does the same complete work-up. Then he makes a work-up synopsis of what he will do and the cost savings with comparisons. On a single sheet of paper with only enough information to tell the owners what will be done and for how much. $100,000.00. If the full plans and specifications are wanted, the cost will be $10,000.00. Which will be included in the $100,000 price if Johnny Knows **** he is doing, gets the job.

Therefore, if the Condo Board/Owner wants to pay $10,000 for the information and give the job to Joe The Slug, to save $5000, so be it. Johnny who KWHID, is well rewarded for his knowledge and time. When Joe The Slug, who knows far more than John (in his mind), FU's the job, and the owners call him about problems when not following the plan, he can decline or fix it and be well compensated.

My motto: There's never enough time to do it right. But always time for someone else (like me or others here) to do it over.

If someone asks me for a price, I ask them who is also giving a price. If certain names come up, I decline. Why bother.

D107

wrong post

furnacefigher15

Large btu's

Fulton, Paterson Kelley, Lochinvaar, Cleaver Brooks



To name a few of the bigger players

CMadatMe

Smoke and Mirrors

Henry I applaud the savings but we had no way near the heating degree days this year compared to past years for that to be a realistic long term savings and payback. How did you do the comparison?

gennady

HDD

To do proper comparison, heating degree day method will be more accurate

meplumber

Henry is in Canada.

Chris. Henry is in Eastern Canada, I believe that while their winter was milder than normal, it was no where near as mild as yours in the mid Atlantic.

Henry

Degree days

First off, we did do a degree day comparison for the atmospheric. It was warmer here in March but not the rest of winter, which was average! It was a two year comparison! The Lochinvar Crest will give you a 25 to 1 turn-down. Three boilers will equal 75 to 1! Due to the two burner design, it bypasses the old rule of only 5 to1 turn-down for boilers for certification. The other advantage, it an be Cat II vented for multiple boilers!!! Thus for commercial installs with very high and long venting, it beats out a whole lot of others! There are some other condensing boilers of similar capacities and Cat II but they are all 5 to 1 turn-down and most are of aluminium construction and not S/S.

Henry

Henry

Design

I will never leave a copy of the design! I will show them the basic printed design but will NEVER show the specifics nor let them have a copy of the design! Corruption is a mild word in the condo management business!



Henry

gennady

design

How will they know what they are buying?

nicholas bonham-carter

Springtime for the mod-cons

The milder periods of winter are probably the time of greatest fuel savings for mod-cons, as the outdoor reset will keep the water temperature just high enough to take the chill off.

I imagine that the proposal would consist of a list of equipment to be installed, with no installation specifics other than a general description of the end result--lower fuel consumption, greater comfort, and quicker response etc.--NBC

icesailor

Pricing:

MePlumb,

I wasn't commenting on how anything was decided on the job, I was only relating  something I read years ago about a guy that got tired of loosing every job to a slug that would always do the job for $1,000 less that the nest lowest bidder. He would tell the owner that he would do it for $xxx. The owner then knew that whatever the price was, he could always get the job done for $1,000 less than the next lowest bidder.

Where I work, there were a pair of slugs that were really squeaky. They did nice work but were terrible pay. They only used the same plumber and electrician but they always got three bids for the jobs ( or so they said). There was an electrician, Electrician #1 always did the work for years. The top electrician where I work had a lot of trucks and employees and today, most electricians in business at one time, worked for this company. His price was always lower than the #1 electrician so he would drop his price to get the job. Years later, when the top electrician was getting ready to retire, #1 asked Top Electrician how he could do the work so cheaply. That he could never make decent money on the houses because he had to lower his prices so low to meet his (top electrician) prices. To which the Top Electrician replied, Are you kidding me? I wouldn't work for those two asshats if there was only one job left in life. I would go out of business or lay off the help and sweep the shop. I've never given them a price EVER and I didn't trust them from the one and only time they ever came in my shop and I told them to get the &^%$ out. They've been playing you like a fool.

Like the guy that I mentioned in my first story. It don't give "air prices" (prices drawn out of the air). It takes time to properly come up with a price. If you know that you aren't going to get a job, no matter what, why bother.

meplumber

The other Chris.

Sorry ice. My comment was directed at the other Chris.

icesailor

Others:

I thought it may habe been but I thought I had a good story.

One of many.