why does dan have a prob. with radiant and toilets

jonny88

hi,in one of dans books he talks about doing a radiant heat job and takes measure to talk about keeping tubing away from the wax gasket,am i misunderstanding this or can the tubing actually melt the wax,i was on a job today where tubing was laid directly under toilet,i was just looking for confirmation before i said something,thanks

kcopp

It can ...

especially in higher water temperatures melt a wax seal. They do have special rings that resist this melting. Fluidmaster is one.

Gordy

No wax rings

Redoing my bathroom with radiant, and tile I just picked up a wax free ring at The box store. Not that Im close to the ring, but for a couple of extra bucks cheap insurance..........And clean.



Gordy

jonny88

thanks for the info

its funny i was following a discussion in a different website and this question arose.the general opinion was it is a stupid ? and cant happen.one answer was my truck gets hotter in the summer and the wax doesnt melt in there.i wanted an opinion from here though especially as dan mentioned it.on the job i am on twoo half inch lines come up in the same hole as the lead bend.i will be sure to use a felt gasket for re assurance.

pipe4zen

melting point

of parrafin wax is about 130*F, radiant floor surface temperatures should not exceed 85*F. Wax gasket sits above finish floor, if radiant temperatures are controlled correctly , no way it could melt. I too never had a gasket melt in my truck.

As for the plumbing, replace the lead bend, no one really uses those any more, and good practice would be to drill another hole for the tubing anyway, and not use the same hole as the closet bend.

Sol Hydronics

condensation as well

not only the wax ring could be a problem but the warm air on the cold tank i have seen

Gordy

I Think

That Dan has come across this situation where it did melt, or he would not touch on it.





 Bottom line is the ring does not have to "melt" but soften to cause deformation, and a leak.  I would think that unless you had to run extremely high supply temps the porcelain, and water will dissipate a lot of the heat. I stayed about 10" away, and still used a non wax ring just for saftey........I hate pulling up terlits.





Gordy

Mark Eatherton

I think I may know the reason...

I think I may have been the person that brought it to Dans' attention.



Really, what advantage is there to running tubing directly below the base of a toilet? As long as there is tubing directly in front of the bowl, where peoples feet will be, I see no advantage to putting tubing beneath the toilet bowl. And yes, as Gordy said, I have seen the BEE's wax ring distort and collapse with tubing within 6" of the closet flange.



Reminds me of the time I was having lunch with a person who sells electric radiant floor heating systems who told me she NEVER puts tubing beneath the location of the bed, that it doesn't do any good... I told her she'd be in serious trouble in my house because my wife moves the bed to a different location every couple of years. She looked pretty sheepish at that point.



Better safe than sorry.



In retrofit situations, where the tubing is coming from below the floor, I will take a 3/4" high speed drill bit and chuck it into a Hole Hawg, drill straight down through the sub floor, then while the bit is spinning (high speed setting) turn the bit sideways to give an easy means of transitioning the tubing from the bottom of the floor to the top of the floor without having the tubing hump way up in the process. I wouldn't have brought it through the closet flange hole for sure. Tough enough to get a solid floor mount as it is without having less material than you could have.





Also, the production of condensate on toilet tanks has more to do with the tank surface temperature (below dew point) and elevated humidity temperatures.





ME

jonny88

thanks all for your help

i moved the lines away from the bowl as was suggested.but this been nyc we use cast iron ,copper and yes lead bends.no pvc, on waste pex on domestic water.you would be surprised how many plumbers still use lead bends and we still make our pans with lead also,thanks again..

Mark Eatherton

I am GLAD to hear it...

Sounds like the plumbing craft is still alive and kicking it in NYC! At least you have to have SOME Skill sets to be able to do work out there. Where I am at, so long as you can run a hand saw and a paint brush, you're considered a plumbers apprentice. The craft has died here... Thanks HBA.



ME

DanHolohan

You were that person.

Seems like yesterday! Thanks, pal. 

Mark Eatherton

TIme flies when you're having fun....

And yes, it DOES seem like yesterday.



Thanks for all you've done and continue to do for the industry Dan.





ME

DanHolohan

Shucks.

I still can't hold your coat. 

jonny88

talk about some heavy hitters

yes mr eathertoon,it still is alive in nyc.one more for you,i work for a 3rd generation company and the old man on friday evenings supervises us on wiping our straight leads.it takes time and more money,but looking at some of the pics you posted on your boiler rooms you can see the pride and workmanship that goes into it.it is not always about a quick buck.

Mark Eatherton

Thanks, but...

I think you've got it backwards. Were it not for you, I wouldn't OWN a jacket. :-)



Hug that Grandson, will ya?



Here's my future fishing buddy at 1 year old at one of my favorite places in the world. Lower Cataract Lake for those who think they might recognize the place...



ME



OK, I give up. I've tried uprighting the kid numerous times to no avail. You will have to either turn your PC sideways, or cock your head side ways.



Sorry...



Kid musta been drinking heavily like his grandpa or something.... ME

Mark Eatherton

Signatures on lead joints...

Jonny, My father, who was my mentor/master, use to drag me through the old basements of Denver, showing me the signatures from all across the country on lead wiped joints.



He was also a lead pan specialist. It use to amaze me that he could measure up a shower stall, and take sheet lead, manufacture/fold up a lead shower pan, folded corners and all, then collapse it into a bundle, pick it up in one piece, drop it into place and it would fit PERFECTLY.



The Denver Water Board use to occasionally call on him and his long lost lead wiping skills to do repairs on older water mains that were made of lead. We're talking 2" water lines. I've still got all of his old wiping and beating tools. Am going to clean them up and hang them on the wall of my cabin in the mountains. Historic tools.



Keep up the good work.



ME

pipe4zen

lead bends

I'm a NYC plumber also, we now use CI bends, I had not installed a lead bend or shower liner in lead since 1989.

Mostly new construction work , LU#1 union . If I come across lead bend, we cut it at the brass ferrule, and use a no-hub coupling. I remember one high end apartment building, we spent many weeks on end going to each apartment just replacing the lead bends. And rightfully so, especially if you just bought a million dollar apartment below outdated plumbing above.



Also natural beeswax was never used for toilet gaskets, its parrafin wax,a petroleum by product. Good thing too, I hear those honeybees are disappearing.



Good Luck with your project.

Gordy

Strapping young Ladd Mark!!

  Looks like one to follow Gandpas foot steps. Hes probably on your heels already.



Gordy

Mark Eatherton

He'll be 10 steps ahead of the ol' man....

He already is. He doesn't walk. He RUNS everywhere he goes.



I look forward to taking him fishing and hiking.



Thanks Gordy



ME

Mark Eatherton

Bee's wax...

Zen, My dad (rest his soul) was the one who told me it was bee's wax, and that was a LONG time ago, like before I became his apprentice.



In doing some research, these gaskets USE to be made of bees wax, and that's probably where he got it from. He started plumbing in 1948. That's where the bee's wax comment came from.



I stand (sit) corrected :-) The new ones are a synthetic wax according to the MSDS sheets.



ME

pipe4zen

Wax

No problem Mark, I'm not rying to derail this thread with a plumbing technicality. Any ways

here is a link to Hercules wax gasket ingredients. The only listed ingredient is petrolatum, which is parafin wax.

We also used to treat wiping clothes for lead work with parrafin wax as it has a high tolerence for heat without melting or smoking.

I'd be curious to find any info on use of beeswax by early plumbers, if any one would care to find some info after research please let us know.



http://www.herchem.com/specs/johniring.PDF

jonny88

Beeswax

Of topic but beeswax makes a great mouthpiece for my didgeridoo.heat it up and mold it to fit your mouth.makes a great sound.with the utmost respect zen im sticking with my ad bend.

pipe4zen

hobby beeswax

yes johnny I used beeswax for hobbies also, very expensive for such a small amount, but it polishes stone very nicely.



Cool about your lead bend, just remember "plumbers protect the health of the nation" what goes down the drain, or even what the drain is made up of eventually is recycled back into water supply. Treating solid matter is easy , other stuff not so much.

pipe4zen

hobby beeswax

yes johnny I used beeswax for hobbies also, very expensive for such a small amount, but it polishes stone very nicely.



Cool about your lead bend, just remember "plumbers protect the health of the nation" what goes down the drain, or even what the drain is made up of eventually is recycled back into water supply. Treating solid matter is easy , other stuff not so much.

Mark Eatherton

Off topic question...

Zen, Jonny or anyone else that knows, I recently did some consulting in upstate NY, and was told that NYC water is not chlorinated. Is that true?



Thanks



ME

pipe4zen

NYC water has chlorine,

and any visitor definately could detect the slight small and taste .

Other things are added too, like flouride.



http://www.nyc.gov/html/dep/pdf/wsstate09.pdf

SWEI

lead bends

Just had to replace several dozen with PVC because (despite literally trying every plumber over the age of 60 in the county) I couldn't find anyone capable of properly wiping in the offset brass flanges which would have allowed us to accommodate the new WCs.  The tightest of the rough-ins was at 8-3/8" and *everything* was tiled.

Mark Eatherton

I thought so...

I think maybe the person that told me that was referring to the "source", and to my knowledge, that would be true. I am not aware of any system of significant size that chlorinated at the source. Always at the point of treatment.



Thanks.



ME