Old House Advice: Remove Radiators, Get AC?

Faith

Hi! My husband and I are considering buying an old home (1920-ish) that currently has hot water radiator heat, and no air conditioning. We are trying to determine whether it is worth it to buy the house (for quite a good price) and update the climate control -- and if so, how.



The main factors here:



---> We do NOT want radiators. I understand they are original to the home and many people like them, but they get quite hot, and they take up an enormous amount of space in this modestly-sized house. Removing them is not optional.

---> However, we are both big fans of radiant heat, and we are certainly aware of the drawbacks of forced air heat.

---> The current owners recently replaced the hot water boiler at a cost of $10k (!!). We'd love to keep the hydronic system somehow, if possible.

---> And finally, we want air conditioning. I am not a fan of ductless systems (I've stayed in apartments that have the Mr. Slim model, and while it's great, it's simply not an option here - too ugly and bulky, and there's no crown molding to hide them or a similar model).

---> The house is two stories, with a basement and a small attic. Adding ductwork is of course an option -- all the houses around us did it years ago.



I've been researching like crazy here and in other forums, and finally decided to simply post the context and see if all you super experts have any advice for us. :) I would so appreciate any feedback, suggestions, and rough price estimates (we're in Ohio).



Thanks so much!

Steamhead

In a hot-water system

the radiators don't get as hot as they do in a steam system. This is especially true if the system has outdoor reset, which adjusts the water temperature based on the outside temperature.



I suspect this system originally worked by gravity, without a pump. These were typically designed with a bit of a safety factor which made the radiators even bigger. However, this makes them run with lower water temperatures which keeps them from getting so hot. And if the house has had insulation, storm windows etc. the water temperature can be lower still. If the house has a place to safely vent one, this also means you can use a condensing boiler to advantage, increasing efficiency even more.



OK, they do take up a bit of space, but you will not find a better way to keep your house warm- unless you go with radiant floors, which can be quite expensive depending on circumstances. Forced-air "heat" is basically junk, and if you go that way you will never be comfortable in the winter. If you have to have A/C, a ductless mini-split or a mini-duct system will integrate to an old house quite well if done right (your previous one may not have been), and you shouldn't need to build ugly, space-robbing bulkheads to hide the ductwork.

STEVEusaPA

Everything Steamhead said, plus...

You said, you don't want radiators, but removing them is not an option? And the boiler was just replaced? A simple change to your control strategy (adding out door reset) may be all you need to lower the water temp. If you have to keep small fingers off the radiators, you could buy/make covers for them (I personally never like them), which would cut down on the heat, based on design, and keep people from touching a possible hot surface.

I'd keep the rads/boiler, and add the a/c. Hopefully some of your neighbors will let you take a look at their A/C systems to give you some do/don't ideas.

STEVEusaPA

Oops double post

Oops double post

kcopp

Gee... sounds as

if you have your mind made up. Hot air heat is less comfortable, duct work in the attic is less efficient as it is in non conditioned space so that is a waste of energy. You may of may not  be able to do the radiant floor although the floors may be a bit too thick to  easily do a retro fit... good luck.

Ex Maine Doug

Confusing

You don't want rads, they are big but removing them is not optional???

Try another house maybe.

BobC

I think . .

Faith is saying she is going to have the radiators removed in any case, she needs advice on another type of heating system.



Radiators are large and unsightly to some people but hot water baseboard can be problematic to place furniture around also. Radiant floor hot water heat is very good but the second floor is going to be difficult and expensive to do.



Most find radiant heating (steam or hot water) to be a lot more comfortable in the winter and pair them with so called ductless systems that actually use insulated tubes to deliver high velocity cooling to the rooms. Unless your willing to spend a lot of money to retrofit radiant floor heat it looks like you have to choose between radiator and baseboard heat.



The only other choice might be forced hot water radiant panel heat that is meant to be installed on top of a floor but can be installed on a ceiling so you don't have to mess with existing floors. It is expensive and i don't know how many contractors are versed and willing to install this system on a ceiling. I believe it's also expensive to install.



Bob

Wayne Heid

Consider radiant ceilings

Since you'd like to remove the radiators but keep the hot water heat you may want to consider radiant ceilings. It's the perfect application for a retrofit like yours. You would lose about 2" of ceiling height but gain all the benefits of radiant heat and reclaim the floor space taken up by your cast iron radiators.



I agree with Steamhead that a small duct, high velocity AC system like Unico or SpacePak is the best solution for cooling.



Wayne

SWEI

one more option

Would be panel radiators.  I've seen quite a few places where the old floor-mounted squat cast iron radiators really did impinge on the living space, but modern panel radiators in the same locations (mostly under windows of course) were quite unobtrusive.

Faith

Thanks!

Thanks for your replies. I'm sorry that I was unclear in my original post -- my point was that YES the current radiators need to go. They take up very large amounts of space in this house - more than other radiators I've seen and lived with in small apartments. Also, nearly no one in this neighborhood has old-fashioned radiators anymore, so leaving them would probably hurt resale value.



BUT yes, we're very aware of the advantages of hot water heat over forced air heat, so I am coming here looking for a good alternative to simply ripping out this system and putting in forced air. We don't want to do that. We just don't want to keep these radiators as they are. We also need to add central air-conditioning.



Thanks for the replies and the help - the ceiling radiant heat is very intriguing.

Rod

Radiator Options

Hi- Here are some other possible radiator options for hot water heating.

http://jaga-usa.com/Products.aspx

http://www.runtalnorthamerica.com/residential_radiators/index.html

http://www.slantfin.com/images/stories/Product-Literature/catalogsheet_fineline15_15_10.pdf

It is very important to get an experienced installer. Where are you located? Have you looked in the "Find a Contractor" section at the top of this page?

- Rod

Faith

Rough costs for underfloor?

Thanks again - this is all so helpful. We're already looking into the high velocity system for AC.



On the heat, we may just replace the radiators on the second floor with smaller, modern models. But for the first floor we're very interested in underfloor heating. All the rough cost estimates I've looked at include costs for a new boiler, which this home has already. I know that giving costs for this sort of thing is really hard, without knowing specifics, but I'm just trying to figure out if our budget is even in the ballpark.



We'd be trying to retro-fit an existing boiler into underfloor heating for 1 floor, about 900 square feet, with basement access to the floor joists... any guesses what we'd be looking at?

Rod

Heating System

Hi Faith-  One of the strict rules on this forum is that we don't discuss pricing so I'm afraid we can't help you much with that and even if we could, without seeing the house trying to give you any figures that would be meaningful would be pretty hard.

Matching a system with different types of heat emitters can be a bit tricky. (Radiant floors are slow to heat up where as radiators heat relatively quickly.) This is where getting a really good pro is so important. Unfortunately there are a lot of so called "heating experts" out there that will cut corners either through lack of knowledge or the desire to get the minimum bid so one has to be careful that you are working with a true professional. Any reputable heating pro will be glad to provide you with references of systems that they have installed. Check those that are similar to what you plan to have installed as to how satisfied the owners are with the system and the installer.

- Rod

Faith

Whoops!

Thanks so much, Rod! I totally missed that bit on pricing - sorry about that. Thanks all for your help - I'll take a look through the pros in the contractor map and see if I can find someone close by.

furnacefigher15

Heating options

I personally have retrofitted many large radiators with modern wall mount European style with very good success.



I also feel cast iron baseboard is a good option. Very durable, and low profile.



Another option is to use the boiler as a heat source for a forced air unit.



If you are adding a/c, you need an air handler and duct work anyway. Just order an air handler that also has a hot water coil that you can connect to the boiler. You'll keep the boiler, have a/c, and could still supplement with in floor heat in areas like the bathroom or kitchen.

Radiator Ranger

What about Superinsulating?

Hi Faith,



I tend to agree with Maine Doug; this may not be the best house for you. Personally, if I were looking to buy a house, I'd choose one with a boiler and standing radiators (with spares in the basement).



If you must eliminate radiators (please send them to me), and start with a heat load calculation, then 'reverse engineer' from there. It may be that you can insulate and vent the house well enough that your need for heat (and SF devoted to radiators is minimal). Awnings, and well positioned, venting windows may span the comfort/ venting gap if well planned. Doing the heat load calculation, including improvements since the original heating system was installed will help determine how much EDR/ radiance is necessary.



Your thoughts,

Gwen

OhioRuss

Rads

I am in central Ohio and need replacement radsfor every rooom in our house. I am more than wiling to buy them if they are the right size as well as come remove them you do end up getting this house. I appologize if this is inappropiate.