Surging, short cycling and more

RVAsteam

We live in Richmond, VA and are new to steam heat. The boiler was replaced by the previous owners in 2008. Late last year the wet return, which runs under the basement slab, started leaking and had to be re-plumbed. While the boiler is running, the water level in the glass gauge fluctuates about 5” activating the automatic cutoff causing the boiler to short cycle and the auto fill to run resulting in over filling the boiler (in a week it might over fill a couple of gallons). It also seems very inefficient. I think the main vent (recently replaced) vents too much steam which causes condensation on adjacent cold water pipes. Could all of this be the result of dirty water – oil from the new pipes and relatively new boiler? I was also wondering whether the LWCO should be lowered

I’ve attached a couple of pictures.

Thanks in advance.

Paul48

To start

Your system risers are between your boiler risers. You have a collision of water and very wet steam.Also. how does the condensate get out of that header?

Steamhead

That boiler is totally knuckleheaded

all the piping around the boiler will have to be redone.



The type of system is a Hoffman "Controlled Heat" Vapor system, using a Differential Loop (cast-iron box with large pipe hanging from its bottom). These Vapor systems were the Cadillac of heating in their day, and are still some of the best out there now. The Differential Loop is covered in chapter 15 of "The Lost Art of Steam Heating".



With the original header where it is, it'll probably be best to build a 3-inch drop header and run the steam line from there into the original header. This will reduce the steam velocity to where it was with the original boiler, which will produce nice dry steam and the system will heat fast! Here are pics of where we did this on a Kriebel Vapor system. The boiler is a Weil-McLain, but the piping pattern is similar to your Columbia (or Utica, same thing).



Once the header is done right, a lot of your problems will disappear. Then check back with us and we'll tackle the remainder. And if you need more eyes on this system, get in touch. Richmond isn't that far from Baltimore.....................

BobC

never work that way.

That boiler will never work correctly the way it's piped, look at the piping diagram of your boiler install manual, steam boilers have to be installed per the installation manual (or better). If you don't the manual tell us the make and model and someone will show you one online.



If you can get Steamhead to correct that piping you will have a great heating system; you couldn't ask for a more qualified heating professional.



Bob

RVAsteam

Was afraid it might be knuckleheaded

Thanks for the quick replies. I don’t know a lot about steam heat (have read We’ve got Steam Heat) but the piping doesn’t seem to make sense and I’ve been told a lot of what are system does is “normal”. There is no way I can see for the condensate to escape from the horizontal header. Looks like some major re-pumping in our future (very expensive??).

Charlie from wmass

"normal" means what all the systems they work on do.

The question is never is this "normal" , it is is this correct? I see repiping in your future. Maybe Steamhead can do a trip south as he is closer then me.

Paul48

Yahoo

Search "Steam Piping Don'ts"......You'll see your boiler.

Steamhead

RVAsteam had me come down

and here is what we found. Yes, whoever installed that boiler really did reduce the 2" risers down to 1-1/2" before colliding them into the header. I suppose they never read the manual.



We found the date 1931 on a toilet tank lid that we believe to be original. This matches the later-style Differential Loop on this system.................

Steamhead

But this Hoffman system is different

because the convectors, along with several cast-iron rads, don't have traps! And it looks like they never did.



The convectors are ARCO, made by American Radiator Co. I've shown them with cover on and off. All the piping is original except the union elbow on the one shown without its cover. This may have replaced an old orifice union or valve. I'm wondering if this was a transitional installation, before ARCO came out with their Model K orifice system?



The steam and dry return pipes follow the typical Hoffman pattern used with the Differential Loop, where they both pitch down from the boiler and drip at the far end of the system. And there are crossover traps at the ends of the mains, which is another Hoffman feature. But this is the first time I've seen a Hoffman without radiator traps.



Anyway, the local guy is going to repipe the boiler with a proper drop header and we'll see how it does. We also put on a Vaporstat and a Gorton #2 on the dry return. Currently the rads closest to the boiler get the most heat, and we're not sure if this is a wet steam problem or if the system needs a new set of orifices. If it's still unbalanced with proper near-boiler piping, we know where to go next.



Watch for more pics when the boiler is repiped.

JStar

...

It's always amazing, that years ago, people could engineer such an awesome system. But, nowadays, we can't even get the piping right....with instructions provided!!

Hap_Hazzard

ARCO

I thought that was an American Standard brand. Most of my thin-tube radiators say "American Standard" and "ARCO" on them. Did American Standard buy out American Radiator at some point?

JStar

Yup

They merged in the 20's.

Steamhead

Actually

the two companies that merged were "American Radiator Co" and "Standard Sanitary Manufacturing Co". For a long time the resulting company was called "American Radiator & Standard Sanitary Corp", shortened to American-Standard in the 1960s or 70s.



These two companies were actually combines of smaller companies. For example, if you ride Amtrak thru Trenton, NJ, just north of the station you will see the old Standard plant on the west side of the tracks. The large smokestack says "Maddock" on it- this was the former Maddock plant which Standard bought out.



They still use one or two of the old Maddock fixture names, or did until recently- Madstone (pedestal urinal), Madera and Madbrook (toilets). This is also why the letter code stamped in the fixtures made here was M, combined with the year of manufacture- M56 would have been the Trenton plant, 1956.



There was a letter code T, but that was for the plant in Tiffin, Ohio.