Oil furnace water ciculating pump making noise

Beaulieu

Hi everyone,



I'm new here and looked for answers in the forum before posting, saw some similar but would need your opinion.



I bought a condo more than a year ago (second winter now) and the pump started making noise last year. It would make noise when the system kick starts after a night being off (it's controlled by an electronic thermostat). Its a high pitch hissing noise that would last for 1 minute and then fade off while the pump is running.



The pump really looks old - has a patent from 1938?: it's an Armstrong 6? position pump, couldn't find any number but the serial number (5701). Its coupled with a GE motor that has a metal tag stating 110v, 2.4 A, 1725 rpm, 1 hp, mod: 11F530BX. I've added good quality SAE 20 grade oil as it is recommended on the pump (3-4 drops for the first nozzle (C), 1-2 in the other 2 (A and B)). Its been working for a while and I kept adding some when it started making noise again (every month or so). But now its getting worse and I would like to repair or replace it. I thought I could buy the bearing assembly in the middle but I dont think they still sell that?  I'm not sure what pump would be equivalent if I was to replace it all? It seems big for my needs too. I have a 1000 square foot condo with 8 heating boards and it is only heating my unit (one main loop). Maybe it used to heat the whole building - built in 1930's 3-plex, each one floor?



I'm charging my camera and will take pics soon let me know what else you need.



Thanks



--edit pictures added

billtwocase

Time to replace

Although the parts are still out there for these, the cost is too high for the repairs, parts, etc. There is also the additional cost to run those older circs. I like Wilo. 

Beaulieu

wilo website

I added pictures. I looked at the 2011 Wilo price sheet, how would I go about to know which replacement is equivalent - or just resize it all?

billtwocase

replacement circ

I would go with the Star 16 3 speed. Like I said, you can still get the parts for your pump, they would be B&G 100. Also measure your flanges. They are not all compatible with newer circs.

Beaulieu

pricing

The wilo Star S 21F is the Three Speed Standard flange model. I need standard right?



I checked the B &G 100 they do have the bearing assembly, and if I could be sure it is the middle assembly making noise, and that it would bolt fit I could have it for less. I think it would be less messy to change only the assembly ? No water coming out? I dont have any valves around this pump.



But of course it would be nicer to change it all. Any big electricity / efficiency saving with a 3-speed, even on a single zone loop?



The flanges are 4" wide or about 3" bolt-to-bolt.

billtwocase

from what I can see

It is probably a mono-flo system, and either way you are going to end up re-filling and bleeding radiators/baseboard/convectors, or whatever emitters you have. Valves where rarely installed back then. I would say that the 21 may be overkill, but I haven't sized your system. Although the bearing assembly may be noisy, there are motor mounts that are without a doubt sagging, a worn out coupling that is noisy and ready to fling it's springs all about, and a noisy motor itself. All those parts added up, it is still cheaper to upgrade. This may also be a good spring/summer project, unless it is becoming unbearable.

BigRich

armstrong circ

yes you can still get the bearing assembly,you would most likly have to order from local wholesaler or pump & Motor shop, ithe direct replacement for the whole ciculator is a S-25, however an astro 230ci would do the job and save you a few bucks, also available at your local wholesaler

icesailor

Other parts:

Don't forget that when changing a bearing assembly, you need to take the old impeller off and put it on the new bearing assembly. Never a fun project Especially when they fall apart.

Replace it with a Wilo Star 21 3 speed. It will work fine.

Beaulieu

in the mean time?

I basically set it not to turn off during the night. Temperature stays stable throughout the night so I'm not getting woke up by the screaming motor at 5 am when it would go ful blast before and make a lot of noise. Thats the only way I can avoid the sreeching in the morning.

billtwocase

Armstrong

replacement parts were garbage for these. B&G 100 parts will do just fine. Thankfully Sids came out with a B74-1R years ago, impeller is already on and ready to gop

Mike Kusiak_2

Bearing assembly lubrication

If the bearing assembly hasn't been oiled for years and you only added 3 or 4 drops to location "C", you still may not have enough oil. A completely dry bearing may take a couple of tablespoons of oil to fill the reservior. There is wool wicking inside to absorb the oil and it should be saturated to keep the bearings lubricated.



I would continue to add oil to location "C" and see if it reduces or eliminates the noise. If you overfill it will run out the overflow underneath so you might want to put a rag there in case.



If the bearing assembly seal is not leaking water, I wold not consider replacing it until I tried oiling it further.

kcopp

Looking at ...

those pictures, that whole set up looks ancient.... note the stack switch on the flue pipe. It probably looks like a total boiler (not furnace) is a candidate to be replaced. You could save 30-40% on your heating bill....

Beaulieu

Changing the whole setup?

My heating costs are about 1200$ per year including the 'service insurance' and yearly tune up. I dont find it too expensive. Of course the oil company will not tell me to change it if its a guzzler because they make more money with that model...

If I were to change it all, how long would my ROI be? I was told by the old owner to change it to electric instead.

icesailor

Oil use and oil companies:

That is a myth that oil companies want you to keep fuel inefficient equipment so they can make more money. Chances are, if you change, you will go gas and they loose you as a customer.

Then, a lot of folks will rather keep outdated oil equipment and not spend the money on new. How old is that boiler. They haven't come through with Stack Switches since I started doing this almost 50 years ago. And they are illegal to replace in some states.

How old is the boiler/burner and how many new(er) cars have you bought in that time? I would not buy a 1962 Chevy as my primary vehicle today. Would you?

That circulator and boiler are probably over 60 years old. Things have improved in efficiency in that period.

Post some pictures of that old gal. Post a name and rating plate. We'll tell you what it is.

Beaulieu

You speak the truth

I hear you man. I'd rather have a more efficient system if only for the environement. And again I'd probably switch to electric since its noiseless, odorless and cheap here. But the electric boilers I saw were 5k, it's a bet to know how long it'd take to reach that in savings.



I don't know how old it is, I bought the place less than 2 years ago and I wasnt there in the 1950s. If it was built with the building it must be from 1938. That's a pretty cool 'chevy' IMO hehe The original pipes coming out of the boiler look like cast iron but they transfer to 1 inch copper pipes now.

I havent bought any cars man in the last 2 years, I bought a house which is more expensive - and the service man was like: your boiler is a 'cadillac' Maybe he meant like you; an ancient piece of crap.



I'll add some pictures soon for the forums enjoyment!



Take care

Paul48

LOL

Ice isn't that old!

icesailor

Ageless:

1938 could be a safe guess.

Those are threaded steel pipes, not Cast Iron. The fittings may be Cast Iron.

If there is no change in piping around the boiler to the radiation, it probably is origonal and never changed.



Pictures would be nice.

Beaulieu

pics of the cadillac

You tell me if you know this model ice.



Ok so in order:

right side

center

left side

flue pipe (left side)

top expansion tank - old school

icesailor

Old Boiler:

Now, THAT be an old one.

I'd say it was always a pumped system and if it was ever a gravity system, it would have been changed when the boiler was installed. The copper onto the circulator return is the question.

Someone must have changed the burner to a Riello so you don't need to worry about that nasty stack switch going south and filling your cellar with oil.



That heat saver thingy is interesting. Does it still work? And that open connection for a gas water heater, you should have that plugged off. Nice example of pre-war and after high technology. Well cared for.

Beaulieu

Riello

You are right it is a riello burner (you are really quick to notice things). What makes me laugh is all the old electrical wires going to the original equipment it shows how old it is. It was also not fun to empty the expansion tank (it was full when I bought the place) since I had to blow air back into it for water to come out



I dont know much about boilers so all comments are appreciated. Am i right to think the circulator pumps the water from the bottom towards the top?



The heat saver still works I can hear it switch on from time to time. The internal fan in a little clancky but it seems to work. I'm not sure how to take care / service that piece and I'd like to open it up at one point because I'm curious to see the internals. I'm not sure how it works but it seems to turns on by itself when it sense heat could be used? I've never really stood by it when its on and I cannot remember it blowing much air...



For the gas water heater open connection can you help me locate it in the pictures (which one and where?)



Take care.

icesailor

Open pipe:

Its actually not a connection for a gas water heater, its the air intake for the duct blower. Not to worry. Its normal.