Burnham IN11 Header Question

crash2009

I dug up these old pictures here on the wall.  As I understand it this is the header on a Burnham Independence (IN11).  According to the piping chart, in the Burnham manual, riser 1, should be 2" and drop into 3".  This 1 doesn't drop, it comes in from the side.  I was thinking that something looks screwey here but I am lost for words.

Does it make any difference if riser 1 comes in from the side of the header?  Assuming this is normal, after 1 and 2 enter the header, How far apart should they be?

The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

Distances, etc.

Keeping the complete header at 3 inch would help be sure that the pressure is equalized from one end of the boiler to the other.  Keeping the distance between the boiler risers close is good to keep pressure differences to a minimum. The distance from the last riser to the first take off is quite important.   This should be a minimum of 3 pipe diameters and at least 2 diameters between take offs and 2 diameters between the last take off and the header drain.  If you see photos of the glass piped header you can see why...The water from the bottom of the header tends to get pulled up at each takeoff and needs a little space to settle back down.

gerry gill

The headers job

is to seperate the steam and the water, which is why it is usually bigger than the takeoff..so there would not be much seperating taking place in the 2'' section of the header..

crash2009

Thank-you Dave and Gerry

  So as it is, riser 1 is not doing much separating.  The distance between 2 and 3 should be three pipe diameters, and the distance between 3/4,  4/5,  and 5/6, should be two diameters. 



If these recomended distances are not adhered to, whould you expect wet steam?  What other problems might arise?

Long Beach Ed

Headers

While I'm with you guys, it's important to differentiate between good practice and manufacturers' minimum recommendations. 



Burnham doesn't specify any distance between takeoffs or drops.  Many manufacturers do.  So the only thing contrary to Burnham's instructions with this mess (and this is one messy installation!)  is that the entire header is not 3" pipe.   Burnham specifies the entire horizontal header be 3".



Those of us blessed with knowledge and desire always try to improve on the manufacturers' instructions, which always represent the minimum specifications.  That's what makes the craft.  Anyone can follow a drawing (you'd think).



Sometimes our improvements make a big difference in saving fuel and system operation.  Sometimes they just waste money and make extra work for us.  It is our experience that tells what brings returns and what is expensive folly.

FJL

Bad Install??

So this is a bad install? If so, what problems will be created as a result?

Long Beach Ed

In my opinion...

My opinion...



It's an ugly, sloppy, amateur installation that will probably work fine on most systems. 



But if you have problems, then this is one place to look to make improvement, and there is lots of room for that to be made here.



Without seeing the rest of the system, I can't tell you more than that.



I'd be interested to see what others say.

MikeyB

Elbow

Does it make a big difference if you face your reducing elbow at the end of the Header straight down to connect into the equalizer? if you pitch the Horizontal portion of the header more than expected you would have to install a elbow/nipple/45 to plumb the equalizer into the top of the Hartford Loop Tee, I have seen it done both ways, just curious if it really makes a difference either way, I'm figuring if you only pitch the horizontal section just a  little to drain you could use just an elbow to drop down straight into the Hartford Tee and would never see that the equalizer pipe is out of plumb, Would the elbow/45 combo add too much resistance to balance the equalizer? Thanks for any explanation

The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

Likely,

Water will tend to get pulled up into the steam mains in this installation.  Alot depends on the velocities of the risers to the system.  If the first riser has relatively little load, or low velocity, it may stay nice and dry.  With some of the steam already off the header, the velocity in the header will slow between the system risers, so, if your'e lucky the second system riser may also be dry. It's really hard to say for sure.

The surest way to help prevent this is to maintain those minimum distances and make the system takeffs oversized (say 2 1/2 to 3 inch) and then reduce them to the steam main size further up.

crash2009

I increased

 the size of 1 and 2 (in the sketch) before thouroughly understanding what you just said.  I think what you said was to increase the size of 3, 4, and 5.  Now that I have sketched it I can understand the importance of the space you recomended between 2 and 3.  You got both sides of the boiler shooting in there at 1 and 2.  It is probably pretty wet at 3, and if 3 is high demand, the water will get pulled up by the steam rather than flowing to the equalizer and returning to the boiler.



Would there be any advantage to increasing the size of 1 and 2?  Would that reduce the amount of water leaving the boiler?

Long Beach Ed

Riser

Plugged Tee's have no place on a boiler riser.  They should be replaced by cast elbows. 

FJL

Possible Explanation??

Is it possible a tee was used because there wasn't enough space to fit an elbow under the pipe right above?

The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

Hmmmm....

 It may be helpful to increase it when it reaches the first 90, as that will slow the velocity and may allow the water to start separating, but you really just need a bigger tapping in the boiler.

Charlie from wmass

Tee with a plug

takes up more space then a 90. I am betting it is there to add Squick to clean out all the excess thread sealent and cutting oil.

Long Beach Ed

You Think?

You think there's any excess sealant in there?  no?

crash2009

Not any more

  We found it cooked into the instrument header a couple weeks ago.



http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/140226/New-V-stat-Header

crash2009

More errors

Now there is a return problem.  It just keeps geting worse.  Sorry FJL, looks like you need to make some corrections.  The returns are not correct either.  The returns are supposed to be joined at the floor, then connected to the equalizer by one pipe.  This one pipe is known as the Hartford Loop.

FJL, I have been collecting all these pictures from all the different threads, and posting them here in one place so that the pro's can see the entire picture.  I am just trying to help you find a solution. 



http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/140431/Vexing-Venting-Issue

The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

Crash, do you mind if use your illustration elsewhere?

It's simple and tells the story pretty nicely.

crash2009

I wouldn't mind at all

  As you were explaining, and I was adjusting the picture, it kinda went out of scale.  If you like, I will draw it again with proper distance between 2 and 3.  Would you prefer that 1 and 2 are two inch or three inch?

FJL

Thanks . . .

I appreciate your help. I am not sure I understand what it is supposed to look like and how that compares to what I have, but I will see if I can figure it out so at least I understand what is the problem.

crash2009

Dan

explains it the best.  http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/107/Steam-Heating/118/Steam-boiler-near-boiler-piping

The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

I'd just give it a little more space between 2 and 3

the rest is great. Thanks!

crash2009

All done

Glad to give something back for a change.

The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

Thanks Crash!

there are good people in the world!

Rod

Asymmetrical Riser Laterals

Hi- Very interesting discussion on drop headers!

 Looking at Crash's drawing, if in scale, you end up with asymmetrical riser laterals.

Other than lacking aesthetic symmetry are there any disadvantages to unequal risers laterals?  (see attached drawing)  Thoughts?

I can see a possible benefit with a longer "X" measurement.

- Rod

crash2009

I'll try to explain

but I am kinda new here.  And every time I think I know something about something, I find out I don't know %#$%



I guess you all ready figured out that 1 and 2 originate from the 1 and 2 inside the boiler.  I have never tried to explain this before, and I am not sure how this is going to turn out.  It has been my experience when faced with something difficult to explain, is to just spit it out, so here goes.



Your boiler is just a big cast iron pot full of boiling water.  Just like a pot of pasta boiling on the stove.  The more the pasta boils the lower the water level gets.  Same with your IN11 and all steam boilers.  The main difference between a pot on the stove and a heating boiler is heating steam comes back as condensate.  Everything rotates in a circle.  There are three circuts that I can think of, and I will attempt to explain them all. 

The first circut is 1,2,6,7.  Steam and a little bit of water enter the header at 1 and 2.  The header has a little slope for the water to flow to the equalizer (6), then gravity takes over at 7.  Now if we think back to the pasta on the kitchen stove, with a rolling boil, imagine the boiling going on inside your IN11.  1,2,6,7 round and round 1,2,6,7, That is one of the circuts 1,2,6,7. 



The next circut is a little more complicated.  3,4,5, are the entrance to your mains.  In the beginning I picture 3,4,5 as little vacuum cleaners.  Sometimes they pick up a little water.  Vacuuming the steam out of the header, and sending it down to your main vents.  Some of this steam turns to water (condenses) during the trip to the main vents.  This water or condensate returns through 8 and 9 (I just thought about something you might have three drops like 8 and 9) then goes along the floor through your new returns, up into the Hartford Loop (10) and then mixes with the other water, and back into the boiler through 7.  3,4,5,8,9,10,7



So now we have the header and the mains all warmed up and full of steam all the way down to the main vents.  Next, if your venting is [b]good[/b] the steam goes up all the risers at the same time, and if your venting is [b]real good[/b] the steam goes up the farthest-longest riser fastest so all the radiators in the whole building get steam, all at the same time.  While all that is going on, there is a whole lot of condensing going on, and the condensate is on its way back to the boiler at the same time the steam is going to the radiators.



Hope this helps a bit.

crash2009

No, not in scale.

  Dave suggests X = three pipe diameters.  I think I can understand why it may be necesary on some systems.

Rod

"X" Measurement

Hi Crash-

   What I was wondering if by using asymmetrical laterals with the resulting greater length of "X" (say more than 3 pipe diameters), you gain increasing benefit. In one of the manufacturer's boiler piping diagrams I've seen the figure 14 inches used as the "X" distance.

I really like Boilerpro's concept of starting the risers to the steam main in large diameter pipe.(sort of a steam dome)

- Rod 

FJL

This Helps But . . .

My question was more about your statement that the wet return was not done correctly. That is what I don't understand. And I am still not sure I do see how mine is piped incorrectly or how that could be contributing to the problem that I was describing in my other thread about venting.

crash2009

Rod

I am lost for words again.  Can you explain what is wrong with the wet return/Hartford area in the above picture?  It's late I am done for the night.

FJL

Confusing

Crash: If you are talking to me, I am not commenting about the Hartford Loop in your drawing, but the comments from an above post, quoted here:



"More errors

Now there is a return problem. It just keeps geting worse. Sorry FJL, looks like you need to make some corrections. The returns are not correct either. The returns are supposed to be joined at the floor, then connected to the equalizer by one pipe. This one pipe is known as the Hartford Loop.

FJL, I have been collecting all these pictures from all the different threads, and posting them here in one place so that the pro's can see the entire picture. I am just trying to help you find a solution."



I hope that clears up what I was trying to communicate if I was not clear.



Thanks again.

Rod

What are the pipes in the picture?

I'm afraid I don't have a clear idea of the overall problem as I haven't been following all the threads.

In the Hartford Loop picture I can guess what the problem is but since I can't see exactly where the different pipes actually lead I don't want to jump to conclusions and so need more info.

 

I've attached the photo with comments and letters marking the pipes.

The pipe labeled "A", I'm assuming is the Equalizer?

Where does the pipe labeled "B" go? Is this the Wet return?

The pipe labeled  "C" looks like it is capped at the brickwork. Where does it lead?

I'm assuming pipe labeled "G" is the gas line?

- Rod

FJL

Pipes in Photo

I think I can properly ID the piping.



A = equalizer

B = drain pipe. You can't see it in the photo, but on the horizontal pipe leading in/out of the boiler, is a valve in the closed position. I was told that I'd used this to drain the boiler.

C = pipe connected to the wet return, which is the pipe that you are wondering if it i capped. No it is not capped. The picture at the bottom here will illustrate better.

G = skim port, which is not show in the picture. The black pipe shown leads from the skim port tapping to the drain, which is where the leg attached to pipe B is leading. The drain would be in the lower right just out of view.



Here is a picture of the wet return:

crash2009

Sorry about that FJL

I was completely wrong about errors in your Hartford piping.  I thought pipe "B" was a wet return.  The valve should have alerted me to ask more questions before jumping to conclusions.  Thanks Rod, for helping me get out of the corner I painted myself into.

FJL

Header Piping

For those still interested in this topic, the size of the header is 4 inches not 3 inches. Here is what the contract says about construction of the header:



"We will install two 2" riders from the new boiler with a new 4" steam header and a 2" equalizer. We will start the header equalizer by elbowing down in 4" and then reduce to 2" This extra care with your steam header makes sure that only dry steam gets up into steam piping. This makes for an extremely quiet operating system."

FJL

Header Piping

For those still interested in this topic, the size of the header is 4 inches not 3 inches. Here is what the contract says about construction of the header:



"We will install two 2" risers from the new boiler with a new 4" steam header and a 2" equalizer. We will start the header equalizer by elbowing down in 4" and then reduce to 2" This extra care with your steam header makes sure that only dry steam gets up into steam piping. This makes for an extremely quiet operating system."