Pressure Control

Boiler Talk

<span style="color:#000000">A plumber installed a new oil steam boiler that has a Honeywell PA404. Anyway the

cut-in is now cranked down. The chrome piece of metal

that moves up and down the scale is bent downward.   If I remove the cover I see the

mechanism (the bent metal, screw, spring). Should the part that sticks out of

the box along the scale be bent downward or should it be bent at a right angle? Wondering if

something is wrong.



I installed 7 new Vari-Valves, 3 Gorton #1's, and insulated most of the mains. At some point of the cycle, I guess at the end, some radiators give a sigh of relief.  phssshhHHshhshh... I even saw the Gorton do it.  Is the pressure still too high?  How is the PA404 suppose to look?  Thanks

</span>

crash2009

Its probably OK

It's going to be difficult to really know what that pressuretrol is set to without a gauge that can read low pressures.  Most of us have installed additional gauges for just this reason.  The most popular gauge around here is the Wika 0-3psi available at  http://www.gaugestore.com/prodinfo.asp?number=33020 

The PA404 is known to have an unreliable indicator.  In other words this is the part you say is bent.  It is quite likely that your installer was trying to match its display to a known pressure so that you could know what it was set to.

Many of us have tossed the PA404 in favor of the Vaporstat.  Adjustable in ounces instead of pounds.



I don't know what that woosh sound is, perhaps you could elaborate?

lchmb

curious

Do you have a chemical cleaner in the boiler?

Boiler Talk

Wooshing sound (and now a Cut-out issue)

Perhaps the wooshing is a pressure release during a subsequent

heating.  Maybe the VariValve was open and then quickly closed?  And come to think of it, why is this boiler running if pressure controls are set low and actual pressure is so high.  Is  the pig tail to the PA404 clogged?  I'd like to add the following to my story. 



In late December I was having a hammer in one of the radiators. I called the installer, who advised I drain the system when really hot several times.  Lots of black stuff came out and hammer disappeared for about 5 weeks.  We then had the oil company skim and add the green stuff, which I'm advised will be removed in over a week.  The tech replaced a stuck open main valve with a Maid-O-Mist. The other main valve was a Dole 87 I think.  The valves were originally replaced by the installer.  Lastly, the Tech suggested getting new radiator Valves to balance the system.



I read several posts about better venting of the mains. One side of the system was heating slowly.  I noted that the PSI  as high as 4.5 PSI.   What about the cut-out?   I know the boiler isn't going to explode. 



I added two Gorton #1's to the slow side and a single Gorton to the other.   The radiators on both sides are now heating at about the same rate.  The radiator EDR's are similar on both sides.   Back to the Wooshing and the cut-out. 



Not always during the burn, a radiator will make a short wooshing sound. I think the sound was louder before I changed the main vents.   Also more of the VariValves use to gurgle and spit droplets.  I didn't note the PSI before lowering the PressureTrol cut-in, but I see it about 3.5 psi at times. I found my cut-out dial set at 1. 



I'm inclined to wait a week and complain to the Tech about the bent indicator and the pressure.  But then I could bend it myself and see what happens.



Do you think wooshing could be a combination of a faulty pressure regulator and the vari-valves closing?   Would a good spot for the Wika gauge be next to a main vent?  Thanks.

crash2009

Pressure too high

I don't have any direct experience with the Varivalve so I am not sure if that is normal or not.  Many others have recomended against buying them for the spitting reasons you have experienced.  I guess it is possible that the pigtail is plugged but it is unlikely that it has plugged in this short of time.  Let the boiler cool off for a few hours, remove the pressuretrol, and blow in the hole.  While its off, add a T and a plug, this would be a good place for your new gauge.  We are discussing a recent gauge failure over in  http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/140128/Failed-low-pressure-Wika-gauge  some good do's and dont's in there. 



I have tried to make my own P404A-1009 co-operate.  The entire exersise was a waste of time.  Currently my P404 resides on my desk as a paper-weight.  There are only 2 adjustments.  The white wheel inside should be set to 1.  The screw on the top left can be turned until it's hanging by a thread.  That is as low as it will go.



I am just wondering why you are even making that much pressure.  Does this only happen in the morning?  What is the model number of your thermostat?

Boiler Talk

Looked again, but a second look is required

I took a second look at the pressure controller.  It is flimsy looking.   I made an adjustment to the cut-in.  I won't know much about the change, but it is something.   I'll have to watch and listen. 



 I don't know if there is enough electric cable to add the gauge just below this controller.   It's connected to the LWCO.  I'm a bit hesitant to modify anything on the boiler at the moment, because there is a service contract.  



The thermostat is a programmable Honeywell product.  Probably 10 or more years old.  I couldn't find an obvious model number.  I haven't noticed any odd behavior on it.  I do hear a click when heat is activated and only recall a second click when the need is met.  The boiler often runs a couple of times. 

crash2009

Some cleaning chemicals

 can cause problems with the day to day operation of the boiler.  Can you make a phone call and find out what that green stuff is in the boiler?

Boiler Talk

Green Stuff

I don't know what it is, but it's coming out.  The green stuff was added after a skimming.  Its suppose to put oil into suspension.  We were told "give it time to do it's job."  I've seen it before only occasionally. 



I saw the maximum pressure at 3 PSI, again most of the burn is near zero on the gauge.  That high number was at the end of the burn.  I know  it's too high.  I really need to observe this over the heating season.  Perhaps coldest days have the highest pressure?  I'm going to look into your suggestion on the Vaporstat control. 



So even if the radiators are at maximum and the thermostat is calling for more heat, the boiler can still run and add pressure?  The pressure devices are suppose to stop the burn? 

crash2009

ANTICIPATOR or CYCLES PER HOUR (cph)

If the radiators are full, and the vents are closed, and the thermostat has not been satisfyed, the boiler will continue to run, untill the pressure (in your case) reaches 3psi.  At that time (3psi) your pressure controller will shut off the gas supply (your gas valve).  If the thermostat is still not satisfyed, your boiler will continue to short cycle until the thermostat is satisfyed.  off-on-off-on-off



The million dallar question is "Why is the thermostat not satisfyed?"  Is there something wrong with the thermostat?  One thing you could easily check is the ANTICIPATOR or CYCLES PER HOUR (cph) setting inside the thermostat.  We would need to know the exact model number.  A picture would be helpful also.

Chris_L

Just take it out.

If you are trying to set that pressuretrol as low as possible, and it is an additive controller (cut-out = cut-in + differential), you can take out the spring and the attached indicator.   Just keep adjusting to a lower pressure and the screw will come out of the spring mechanism.  You can then take it out completely.



With the differential on the microswitch set as low as possible (1 psi in my case), you'll then be running the boiler at as low a pressure as possible with this controller (short of hacking it).  I've done this on both of the boilers in my home for a few years without any problems.  The only possible issue you might have is that the switch doesn't cut back in when the pressure falls, but  that has never happened with my PA404s.

Boiler Talk

Honeywell Thermostat - gurgling

OK.  I insulated all of the Header and the VariValves didn't gurgle as much this morning.  I have a bit more insulating to do around the unions to the mains.  I don't think there's a problem with the VariValves.  I've never had quieter heat!  But I did notice the wooshing this morning . 



The Thermostat is a Honeywell thermostat ct3400a.   I have two wires into the back. The setscrews on the back appear set for Oil - factory settings.  See pictures. 



http://www.gogeisel.com/geiselonline/support/Honeywell/CT3400_CT3455.pdf



You bring up an important point about how it senses the temperature - CPH.  This unit has adaptive recovery.  Perhaps newer models check more often or at a higher frequency.   What about the location?  It's in a corner next to two door openings. 

crash2009

I don't know

if this thermostat is compatible with the gas valve on a Burnham.  Page 2 says it can be used on an oil fired boiler, then has a caution flag with a 1 in it.  When you read what the caution is all about, they start talking about zone valves.  Zone valves are used with water boilers, not usually with residential steam.

I just read page 18 and 19 and there is no mention of a setting for steam.  Those 2 screws at the back 1A and 1B is where the cycle settings are adjusted.  Looks like this thermostat is incompatible with steam.

Maybe someone from around here would know for sure, but the way I read it, toss the thermostat before it damages your boiler. 

Visionpro 8000 is popular here, with tons of support

Boiler Talk

Radiator Hiney Hop

I think you must be right about the thermostat.  While I don't know if I'll buy the Honeywell VisionPro 8000, I at least plan to buy one that I know was made for steam systems.  I contacted LUX and was told which ones are made for steam and have a "swing" adjustment.  The rep advised that a swing setting of 1 is good.  I started reading about Anticipator adjustments, but I haven't yet done the math myself.  This exchange has been very helpful.  I also read another Heating Help thread about why the PA404 should stay on the boiler. It seems if anything always add don't subtract equipment.  I guess I stuck on the steam radiator hiney hop!

crash2009

Have you tried

changing the settings of the screws yet? 

If you are set to gas/oil/water that will give you a "swing" of 3 (1A out one turn) + (1B out one turn) looks like this would be about the best you could get out of this thermostat.



If you are set to gas/oil/air that will give you a "swing" of 5 (1A closed) + (1B out one turn)



The absolute worst setting for steam would be to set it to electric which would give you a swing of 9 (1A closed) + (1B closed)



Ideally you want a "swing" of about 1.  I have one of those old, round, honeywells.  They are a pain to set up, but they can be adjusted from here to infinity almost.  I have tried 1.2 and also .08  It just amazes me how different the boiler runs, between these two settings.  Here is a chart showing 1.2 and then a sudden change to (the chart says 1.0) but it might have been lower, like .08 

04090

Great chart!

Can you share how you make a chart like that? 

crash2009

The included software

 makes the chart.  The device is called a Lascar data logger.  I bought the entry level model.  EL-USB-TC  http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/lascar/dataloggers/elusbtc.htm   Mine came with a thermocouple/temperature probe.  I jammed the probe in a crack between the chimney mortar and the flue.  The logger hangs on the wall beside the boiler.  When it's time to download the data, the logger is plugged into a USB port on my laptop.



Have fun, you will find lots of uses.

Boiler Talk

Cycle Rate Adjustment & Wooshing (once again)

The screws were set as you suggested.  1A out one turn and 1B out one turn.  



I drained the green water last night.   No more gurgle.  It's Gone,  Hurray!  One victory. 



But I witnessed some surging this morning , so about an hour ago I drained the boiler after it got real hot.   In fact the PSI was up to 3 before it shut off.  I turned off the electric and began to drain it.  The water came out furiously, before I stopped to empty the bucket.  Again the water was dirty.  I saw some oil specs on top of the water.  Something really odd occurred after I again started draining.   When I opened the bottom drain on the boiler nothing came out while one of the main vents started to hiss, and only after the hissing stopped did the water flowed again.  What now?

Boiler Talk

This Chart

Can you briefly explain the CPH and Anticipator, swing?   I assume they really mean the same thing?  This chart seems to indicate the higher the CPH the more intense the unit runs.  But lowering the CPH makes the pattern different.  More shorter runs?



Also I explained something else about wooshing on my system.  Please review also.  Thanks. 

crash2009

The chart

Starting on the left at around 8:00am to about 1:30 pm my anticipator was set to 1.2  As you can see, the boiler only ran once, in that entire time (five and a half hours)  Basicly on for 40 minutes, and off for 3 hours.  The building was very uncomfortable.  72 F when it was running and 68 (or less) when it was off.  One room in the house was almost freezing.   I would compare this to a swing or CPH of 1.2



Then, around 1:30pm I changed the anticipator from 1.2 to .08  This changed the amount of time the boiler ran, and also the amount of time the boiler rested.  The setting of .08 caused the boiler to run for 10 minutes, and rest for 20 minutes.  This was no good either.  Yes the house was warm and toasty, the cold room got better, but the gas company was laughing all the way to the bank.  I would compare this to a swing or CPH of 3 or 4 

CPH of 1 is for steam

CPH of 3 is for water

CPH of 5 is for forced air

CPH of 9 is for electric heat

Whatever thermostat you are thinking about getting, research it here on The Wall.  Don't get a lemon.  If LUX is your brand, see what experience others have had using them with steam.

crash2009

Cycle Rate Adjustment & Wooshing (once again)

I moved down our conversation down here, the page was getting kinda tight.  It's not a good idea to drain the boiler when its red hot (as you found out).  At the end that little bit of water in the bottom flashed and went up into the system.    

LCHutton

I have the same Honeywell CT3400 Thermostats

Crash2009

These 2 Thermostats control 2 separate Taco 3-wire zone valves along with 2 isolating relays but share a single circulator. It would seem that the CPH setting of each thermostat could fight each other. How would you suggest the 1A& 1B adjustment screws be set?



The only problem I have had is there is not enough output to hold 68°F when it is under 10°F outside. My old boiler and controls using the same thermostats had not problem holding the temperature.



When it was cold, I increase the temp on the Aquastat from 190° to about 200° and that seemed to help a lot. Should I drop it to 170° when it gets warmer?



I posted a separate thread about this heating problem but since it has gotten warmer, I haven't been able to replicate the problem so I only have these questions.

Fred

Pressure reading

If you are using the 0-30lb. pressure gauge on your boiler to determine that your pressure is 3lbs. when it cuts out, don't! That gauge is so inaccurate that it is worthless. only purpose it serves is to meet code and satisfy the insurance companies. You really do need a 1-3lb. gauge to determine your real pressure. Don't make adjustments to your system or pressuretrol until you have the correct information (which, in this case, means that you know the actual pressure your sustem is running at) 

crash2009

I dunno

I have no experience with water systems.  I looked into this thermostat as a possibility of why the OP's steam wasn't working correctly.  Your questions might be answered in the manual.......sorry I can't help.

  http://www.gogeisel.com/geiselonline/support/Honeywell/CT3400_CT3455.pdf