Solar Thermal Alliance of Colorado (STAC)

Mark Eatherton

Check out THIS road map. If nothing else, I have to give these folks credit for ambition.



<a href="https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B3Fhq9mqOQ4qZjkwYzlhMDItNmQ0NC00Yzk2LTk0MzYtYTM4OWU5MmQ4ODNh&hl=en_US">https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B3Fhq9mqOQ4qZjkwYzlhMDItNmQ0NC00Yzk2LTk0MzYtYTM4OWU5MmQ4ODNh&hl=en_US</a>



Comments?



ME

PeterNH

Most Excellent Grasshopper

If i was young and free that would be the place i'd want to be.

Jealous.  Especailly of the amount of sunlight.

 

This is tyical of the nimby crap i see everywhere:

===============

"

Local government regulations have become one of the biggest barriers to driving down the cost of solar thermal deployment.

Local government regulations have become one of the biggest barriers to driving down the cost of solar thermal deployment.

"

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Best of Luck,

Peter

Kevin_in_Denver_2

Careful What you Wish For

Yes, we're at the bullseye. But continued low prices for natural gas and high installed costs for solar leave us with an unhealthy solar hot water industry in CO today.



Subsidies, rebates, tax credits and incentives are dubious ways to assist an industry since they temporarily warp the market.



The development of simple, inexpensive, residential solar hot water systems has more long term value.



If you agree, and have some ideas, contact me ASAP. I will be presenting "simple solar ideas" at the World Renewable Energy Forum and ACEEE in May. http://ases.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=18&Itemid=147

http://www.aceee.org/conferences/2012/hwf

Simply Rad

be careful what you wish for

I believe solar thermal DHW is already simple.   With the use of modern technology including pump stations, well insulated indirect water heaters and  even delta T modulating pump controls.  I think the problem lies within the term inexpensive.  When that term is used with hydronics that usually means throw away technology.  That is exactly what solar thermal does not need.  Why promote systems that prematurely fail.  Seems like that is what happened  with the first go around 30 plus years ago.  I think the term inexpensive also brings out every Tom, **** and Harry contractor that can solder a pipe.  I think we must focus on appropriate installs by educated installers.  Just putting in solar does not mean it works, or will work for a long lifetime.  We must focus on service also, like all mechanical systems, solar thermal needs to be maintained in order to provide efficiency and longevity to the system.



Next, I think we need to simplify our hot water uses and habits.  The less hot water usage, the less energy required no matter what system is providing hot water. Unfortunately,  with American life styles becoming more and more indulging, we are fighting a steep up hill battle.   



Again, I think we need to not focus on inexpensive and focus on doing solar right this time.    I also agree with what you are presenting with the fact that natural gas is extremely affordable at the present time. So affordable that there is Never a return on investment for any solar thermal system.  I am on natural gas, and summer bills are around $15 for DHW.  If I had a solar DHW system, providing a solar fraction of 60% that's $9/month solar savings or $108 dollars a year.  Average life span of a thermal system might be 25 yrs.  No matter how affordable of solar thermal system you install there is never a break even point. 

We really need to be paying the real cost of natural gas instead of the subsidized price.  They are the ones blocking the solar industry growth. 



Jeffrey

PeterNH

Why pay less?

I disagree.

We are not supposed to talk about prices, but i hope some discussion of costs might be allowed.

The cost of a majority of solar equipment is absurd.

A few years ago i seriously looked at a 10 collector system.  The cost was overinflated by a factor of 2, at least.

Particularly bothersome was the tax incentive aspect.  Apparently installers cost out a system, come up with x cost then add 50%, which they then tell you what a good deal you are going to get becuase the government will give you a 30% tax credit.  Excuse me. Who gets the the 30% credit?   NH had an additional credit, but required a slavish code compliance of everything invlved. There is no way my 200 year od house complies with every absurd detail of the latest codes. I call total BS for the insider rigged code compliance industry.  For my safety, ha ha what a crock, more for the enrichment of the installer/inspector clique. Worse yet. If you then try and DIY it, then, sorry  no tax credit. If the insiders can't benefit, then neither can the DIY'er , Talk about a rigged and warped system.

 I especially agree with Kevin above, that getting government and tax policy involved with industry never ends well. It won't end well here, again, for solar either.    Bad business.

Come on. This doesn't have to be 500 dollar DOD hammers.

Honda makes a great car in the Acura, but they also make prefectly reliable and long lasting Civics.

The solar industry needs to make Honda Civics, not over priced Cadillacs.



Peter

Kevin_in_Denver_2

Inexpensive can be reliable and long-lasting

Sometimes it just takes a design breakthrough



For example, I think that freeze protection costs too much for the milder climates in the US, so I tried a wild idea that works great, and even though it's not the silver bullet, it is food for thought:



http://greenbuildingindenver.blogspot.com/2012/02/simplest-solar-system-ever.html

Simply Rad

questions

Kevin



So tell if I am wrong but your freeze protection is reverse thermosiphoning all the solar gain from the day to protect from freezing.  If that is true then why even have the system?  I shower in the am and most of the solar heat would have been re-radianted to through out the nite.  I know tubes are well insulated, but constantly circulating the tank would lose heat throughout the nite.  Another question is you said in the video that the system shouldn't stagnate.  That is as long as you are using the heat, if the tank sat for 2 days you would be boiling.  I like the ideas but I think controls are essential.  I think if you want to think simple you might want to focus on developing countries and try to make a difference there.  It is as simple as mounting a 55 gallon black drum above the home, and many times not the roof because the roof couldn't hold the wait.  America is anything but simple. 



The article is saying we need to be installing systems for $1000-3000.  Replacing your

traditional water heater can cost $1000



I live in Steamboat and I personally think, here in the mountains we need to focus on mounting the collectors in a place that they are not buried in the 4' of snow.  During the first solar go around there were 225 Novan systems installed in out area and so many of them are buried from Dec-April.  I find that a wall mount install is the best solution, but then we bring up another big solar hurdle ascetics.  I personally find it frustrating to hear so many people tell me how UGLY the panels are.  I have lost many jobs once they see the panels.  We are completely backwards in this country.  I have a good friend that says"good ahead and burn up all our fossil fuels, make sure to have a good time, because we americans will not do anything about it till they(fossil fuels) are gone. 



I think if you really want to keep it simple install plastic pool panels and hot water heaters......cheap cheap cheap, people would love  it.  People would rather brag to their friends that they got such a good deal than even care if the system worked. 



Jeffrey

Kevin_in_Denver_2

The Key is a low loss collector

Yes, a flat plate collector in this configuration will lose everything it collects.



These heat-pipe evacuated tube collectors are like diodes for heat. This system only loses 5% of what it collects. Even less in the summer.



But there's a design challenge for you. Can you think of a way to prevent reverse thermosiphoning when the temperature is above 40F?



With a steep collector angle, the system won't boil much, even with zero load. But boiling isn't the same as stagnation. Another design challenge: The simplest solution is less insulation on the tank.



Funny you mention cheap plastic panels... The Fafco Sungrabber system provides the most btus per dollar of any system for the warmer half of the country. And the entire 2 panel system weighs 70 lbs. and ships in one 2x2x3 cardboard box.



Does it collect much heat in the winter? No.



Steamboat has lots of challenges, so my thermosiphon and Fafco aren't really options for you.



I don't see natural gas increasing in cost much in my lifetime, so less expensive solar is necessary, if possible. I believe it's possible, even if you think "America is anything but simple"