Water boiling off every four to twelve hours

Steamy_McSteamersons

I've been having an issue with having to add water to the boiler twice (or more) times per day.



This issue has been happening for over four weeks or so and there is no indication of radiator leaks.  If there were a leak, I'm assuming that my plaster walls would be melting (which they are not) and I can't see any water stains on the wall or water pooling in the basement.



I checked the pitch on the radiators and they are shimmed and pitched so that the water will go back down the line (we have a single pipe system going into the radiator with a steam vent on the other side).



I called two technicians.  One flushed the system and then cleaned out the analog pressure gauge pig-tail pipe since it was filled with crud and rust.  He said that was the issue.  The good news is that the boiler would then shut off when the pressure got to a pound (it wasn't shutting off before -- it was running and running and boiling off the water). 



That seemed to solve one problem and we only had to add water every 12 hours or so. 



The second technician came in and simply serviced the entire boiler.  A vacuum and flush seemed to help things and (maybe because it was warmer outside) we only had to add water every two days and then the problem came back again (probably since the weather got cold again).



Now, we add water before going to bed, then wake up to a cold house at 3AM and then have to add water again at 6 or 8 AM because the low water cut-off engages. 



We called the oil company again, but they said they don't know what else

they can do.  They said they'd ask a retired old timer named "Stinky Pete" and see if he could  diagnose the issue from his living room but the odds of that

happening are slim to none and we feel that the oil company is pretty much throwing their hands up in the air.



Right now, the water is pretty clear and I'm going to be emptying the water from both the boiler and the line every weekend. 



I'd call another technician, but most of them are associated with oil companies and won't service your boiler unless you get oil delivered from their company.



If anyone has any ideas on what else to check, I'd love to hear them.



Thanks for your time.

Mark N

Hole in Boiler

Most likely the boiler is rotted out and the steam is going out the chimney. Or if you have wet returns they are rotted out and leaking water. If the boiler is rotted out flood it up to the header and the water will leak out on to the floor.

Ron Jr._3

Agree with Mark

Do a quick check and see if steam is shooting out your chimney like this .



Are your return pipes buried ?



I wouldn't advise draining any water out of the system , unless you're flushing out the low water cutoff . The more fresh water you add the quicker the boiler will rot out . If it hasn't already . Where are you located ?

Steamy_McSteamersons

Re: Agree with Mark

No steam is shooting out the chimney.  Heat's on now and just went outside and no steam at all out the chimney.



No return pipes are buried (in the ground).



The boiler is less than 15 years old.



I'm in Massachusetts.

Steamy_McSteamersons

Re: Hole in Boiler

No steam billowing out the chimney (heat's on now, and went outside to check).



Boiler is less than 15 years old.



This issue was happening when we moved in.  The indicator of a cracked radiator was that a wall was stained and wet and soggy.  I found a cracked radiator which I replaced (I pressure tested the new one) and we were working just fine for about ten years. 



Now, it's happening again, and I can't find any leaks.  After four weeks and all that water I've been dumping in, you'd think that the plaster would be melting off the walls or I'd find water somewhere in the house, but I can't find it anywhere.

Maine Vent

Chimney plugged???

Not a pro, just a homeowner here in Maine. I have a neighbor 2 houses down from me.



She called me over 2 years ago, steam system, adding water, 2.5 storied house.



Chimney was plugged in the attic from bricks the had fallen inside over the years.



The steam was venting out into the attic and eventually started to saturate the plaster walls. Same person, in her basement she had a riser take off the main that was rusted through and this was leaking steam, she didn't even see this one.



Can you see up your chimney from the cleanout, or do you have a dedicated flue liner for your boiler????



Another thought, from a previous thread, have you had any piping work done where you have had joints taken apart, or new piping put in??????

Steamy_McSteamersons

Re: Chimney plugged???

I checked where the boiler vents to the chimney.  I had to use a flashlight and mirror -- I felt cold air and see the cobwebs fluttering so there is no significant blockage since air flows up and down the chimney.



I also saw that the vent pipe does not go to a liner.  It just pokes out into the side of the chimney to vent and I saw no steam venting out through there and there was no stinky wet sooty smell to indicate excess moisture in the chimney. 



There was a good pile of debris at the foot of the clean-out that I should vacuum up though.  That's about it.



Also, we are in an antique cape so there is no attic or space where we can enter to see if steam is leaking out the chimney -- but my observation in the flue proper indicates that no steam is burning off.



As for new pipe work -- no.  We have not had any pipe work done with respect to the boiler since we moved in (and I replaced the cracked radiator -- about 10 years ago).

Hap_Hazzard

Have you checked your return piping?

If it isn't going up the stack or escaping as steam there must be a leak somewhere in the return. If you have a sump system it might be leaking into the sump and being pumped away before you notice it. Have you heard your sump pump running at all? Can you see every inch of your return piping and make sure it isn't leaking? The most likely places are near the joints, but it can happen anywhere. This is a significant amount of water to lose, and it would make a pretty impressive cloud of steam or a pretty substantial puddle. The only thing I can think of is that you wet return is leaking, and your sump system is getting rid of the evidence.

gerry gill

first flood the boiler with water

until it is completely full and a little bit up the pipe..look inside the fire box..(have the boiler 'off' during this test) give it a minute or so..do you see any water dripping on the burner tubes or showing up on the side walls? if so your boiler leaks..drain it back down to the usual spot and turn back on after the test..your leaking somewhere, that is obvious.

Ron Jr._3

Sometimes the leak

is EXTREMELY hard to find !



Long Beach Ed is one of the best and brightest in the industry , and even he can come across systems that have leaks that are just invisible !



http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/138490/System-Losing-Water



There's a few great steam experts that hail from Mass.  Did you click on Find A Pro ?

Steamy_McSteamersons

Re: Have you checked your return piping?

We have no sump pump.



I can't see every inch of the return pipe, but there are only two radiators upstairs and I inspected the joints from the shut-off to the radiator and there are no leaks.  I also felt all the walls and there is nothing moist and there is no odor of rotten, moist sheetrock/plaster (believe me, I know what that smells like from the great radiator leak of aught-two).



The downstairs radiators appear to have no leaks since I can see the piping from the basement (my house is from the 1700's) and nothing is going into the basement.



Last ditch effort is to replace a vent on a downstairs radiator that I see now appears to be broken.  It's not cutting off and I have it turned down the the lowest level -- it should cut out but it's not. 



I'm wondering if most of the boiling is occurring in this radiator.  I'll swap it out regardless.



Thanks to everyone for your immediate help on this.  I greatly appreciate this.  You guys (and gals) are awesome!

Steamy_McSteamersons

Re: Sometimes the leak

Thanks Ron.  I checked the Long Beach Ed thread about his water loss. All communication stops in November.  Does anyone know if he ever figured this out?



I think a compression check would be in order to rule out the leak in the line.



And thanks for pointing me to "find a pro".  I did not see that section of the website.

Long Beach Ed

Steamy...

Keep looking.  Troubleshooting doesn't happen on a keyboard.



A fifteen year old boiler can certainly be leaking at the water line.  Let's hope it's not.   At the risk of repeating what Gerry (who IS the best in the business) has said, this is what you MUST do to find your problem.  You can stare at it all day -- ain't gonna fix itself!  I tried that already and it doesn't work.



If you have a vent that isn't closing and the weather is cold, that is probably your whole problem.  A single vent can lose gallons of water on a cold day and if your steam quality is good, you won't see it. 



1.  Fill the boiler all the way into the header.  That should find most boiler leaks.  When you find you have none,



2.  Check your wet returns. Can you see every inch of your wet returns?  If any of them are buried, they are suspect and must be dug up and checked. 



3.  Check your vents.  If any aren't closing on steam, they'll lose lots of water in cold weather when radiators heat all the way across.  Any that are suspect should be plugged or replaced.



4.  If the weather is mild and the radiators don't heat all the way across on each cycle, your leak is in a radiator, radiator valve or a radiator union.  Suspect the ones above a basement, where leaking water may not show.  Tighten the radiator unions and the packing nuts on the radiator valve stems, especially any that you messed with.  



You can always jack up the pressure to help, but with a big leak, that may still not show the leak.  The next step is to do what I do when I have this problem:  Plug the vents with 1/8" pipe plugs, pressurize the system with an air compressor to 15 pounds, and go run around listening for leaks.  You'll find them for sure!  



If you keep adding fresh water to a steam boiler, especially a newer one like yours, it will rot a hole in it "that you can throw a tomcat through" as a friend likes to say. 



We agree. Stinky Pete woun't be of much help in his living room.



The post that Ron referenced regarded a similar problem I had with a small residential system.  It lost five gallons a day in very mild weather through a couple of loose radiator unions.  Thank you, Ron, for the kind words. 

Steamy_McSteamersons

Re: first flood the boiler with water

OK.  That sounds like a simple test. I'll give it a shot in another half our or so.  I'm surprised the tech's that came out never tried it.



If we find out that the boiler leaks, then that means the boiler needs to be replaced completely correct?



Also, when we moved in ten years ago, I had a water filtration system put in to reduce the amount of Iron and Manganese that was in the well water supply.  I made sure that the boiler got the filtered water to keep the iron and manganese build up to a minimum.  I figured, that the less crap the water has in it, the better it would be for the boiler.  I use potassium salts to clean the filtration media.  I don't know whether that is good or bad for the boiler.

Steamy_McSteamersons

Re: Steamy...

Thanks Ed.  Yep, I've hunted around the house and all the unions to the radiators are good.  When I first moved in, I had this same problem which was a cracked radiator, but I also replaced every single shut off with new ones since some were really corroded.



I also replaced every single vent on each of the radiators.  I tried the generic ones at Lowe's, I even tried the Maid-O-Mist ones and even spoke with the guy who manufactured them (nice guy by the way and helped me quite a bit with my uneven heating problems).



I even bought two of those really fancy European vents from Honeywell that have the thermostat built in to them.  Those helped keep the bedrooms from turning into blast furnaces (our bedroom is the shortest line to the boiler). 



Now I see that one of Maid-O-Mist vents is not shutting off so I'm going to get a replacement for that and I'm also going to do the boiler leak test in a few minutes and I'll report back with findings.



If there is no leak, then I'll replace the misbehaving Maid-O-Mist and monitor it for a day or so and see what happens.  I promise I'll post an update on this thread with SOLVED if that's the case.



Again, thanks so much for all you folks' help.  These are awesome ideas and we might be getting close to solving this!

Long Beach Ed

In my opinion...

Use Gorton vents if you can.  They are all copper and brass.  Never had one fail. 



Don't be so sure about those valves and unions, especially if you've replaced them.  Almost all the new valves are Chinese, and the packing leaks like it isn't there.  The unions are also sometimes egg-shaped or not ground properly and leak. 



I would rule out a 100 year old domestic valve before I ruled out a new Chinese one.  We don't use them as they have brought us nothing but call backs and trouble -- like you're having. 

Ron Jr._3

After pressurizing the system

he found 4 or 5 radiator unions leaking . Took 5 pounds of pressure to find the leaks too . Much more pressure than steam usually runs at .



On one problem job we temporarily jacked up the pressure to 5psi with steam to find a phantom leak . Found it in a dirt crawlspace . A leaky main vent that we snapped off in the worst spot possible trying to take it out  .  

Steamy_McSteamersons

Re: In my opinion...

> Use Gorton vents if you can.



Interesting -- I checked out their website and the design is identical to the Maid-O-Mist vent.  I contact Gorton and see where I can get them.  In the meantime, I'm going to use a Lowe's special to get me by and see if that helps.



If you have a specific manufacturer for the shut off vales, please let me know.  I bought mine from a plumbing supply place that professionals buy from (Furgusen).  They only have one type of shut off.  The only other choice is the big box stores like Lowes and Home Depot which, I'm assuming, is the primary consumer of the Chinese valves.



The old valves we replaced, we did so because the stoppers (or whatever you call them) were corroded and chunks were coming off of them.  The new shut offs I put on seem to be holding up.  No spitting or issues with packing or anything --- yet. 

BobC

maybe . .

You have had some great advise from folks on this board who know what they are talking about. The only thing I can add would be to carefully check the roof for signs of premature snowmelt, using binoculars, because that might signal steam venting into a an uninsulated wall cavity and ending up in the attic. It's been pretty dry up here in the northeast so steam might go a long way before it condenses.



Also when you add water to flood your boiler don't do it while it's really hot, you don't want to crack anything.



good luck,



Bob

Steamy_McSteamersons

Update

Hi Folks,



I performed the boiler leak test as recommended and I saw no leaking into the firebox or anywhere else.



I replaced the old Maid-O-Mist vent with a new el cheapo one that they sell at Lowes.  I will try to upgrade the remaining generic brand vents with the Gorton vents once I find a source for them (I'm in Massachusetts/Rhode Island).



I filled up the boiler one last time and now I'll see what happens tomorrow (although the weather is warming up some).



The Maid-O-Mist was pretty badly corroded.  I had to tear it apart to get at the fitting to unscrew it and there was nothing left to the inside.

Maine Vent

Great supply place

pex supply has many varieties of vents, great service.

nicholas bonham-carter

New shutoff valves

When you replaced the shutoffs, did you replace the spud as well? The valve and spud are a matched pair, and replacing only the valve will probably leak at the union faces.

However, that amount of water disappearing must indicate a visible leak somewhere.--NBC

Steamy_McSteamersons

Problem SOLVED

I found the source of the water boiling off. 



There were three things that contributed to the problem.



1.  The pigtail pipe to the pressure gauge was clogged with rust and crud.  This kept the sensor from shutting off the boiler when pressure reached one pound.  Cleaning the pigtail allowed the boiler to shut off when the pressure reached one pound thus keeping the water from boiling off at such a fast rate.



2.  However, once #1 was fixed, we still were boiling off water but not as fast.  A rotted vent valve on one of the radiators was the culprit.  The valve was rotted throughout and would not shut off when it was supposed to.  The valve was replace and things got even better.



3.  Just by dumb luck I found a small leak at the union of a radiator shut off valve and the radiator proper.  Removing the valve, slathering it with the blue gunk you put on the threads and re-attaching it did the trick.  No leak and water level is normal  without having to add any more.



Root cause of #1 was simply that it was time to clean it out.  However number's 2 and 3 were the result of the house re-settling.  Twice per year the house shifts or the humidity levels change enough that the floor boards move around.



Two times per year we have issues with doors not closing properly and such.  In this case, some radiators lost their correct pitch and water was collecting in the vent valves and eventually corroded one of them out.  Also, the shifting moved the radiator and shut off valve pipe around where the nut came a bit loose and resulted in a leak.



So now, after Thanksgiving, I need to go around and inspect everything to make sure all the pitches are correct and all the vents are working properly.



I sincerely thank each and every one of you that took time out of your Sunday morning to help me out.  I sincerely appreciate all of your suggestions and helpful hints. 



You folks embody the best parts of the Internet and I thank you from the bottom of my heart!



Sincerely,



Steamy McSteamersons