Nozzle choice, what's better in my situation?

martypdji

Hi, about a month ago I had a furnace man replace my furnace oil filter and nozzle. It just clogged a few days ago, normally it lasts all year. I had him leave the nozzle tube, it's an .85 80oA nozzle, so I changed it and also got a couple more. As I was changing it, on the furnace floor there was also an empty tube that said .75 80oA, that must have one of the old nozzles. Should I have gotten the .75 80oA nozzles (which have never clogged), or just stick with the .85 80oA ones, which clogged up in less than a month the last time it was put in?



Can nozzle size make that much of a difference as far as clogging, and am I right in assuming the first number has to do with flow area of the nozzle, so a .75 one will clog quicker than a .85 one?

JeffGuy

nozzle size

There shouldn't be any noticeable difference in how soon they clog. The .85 is putting out more oil and will cause a bigger flame. You should stick with the nozzle that your burner was last adjusted to, since changing the nozzle size without adjusting the pressure, etc. could make the flame burn worse (too big, too small, too dirty, etc). If you're going to start changing your own nozzles, you should get the equipment and expertise you need so you'll know when you should call a pro in. Throwing away efficiency at today's oil prices doesn't make sense.

martypdji

He's already been called this year

Yeah I've always called a furnace guy in to change them, it's only that the last time it clogged so quickly that I changed this one myself to save another $60 service call in the same month. I hope the new one lasts at least to the end of the season. So I guess that the last time the furnace guy changed it, he put in a .85, that's what I should stick with? And the nozzle size, whether big or small, doesn't have anything to do with how long it takes to clog it?

billtwocase

There may be

a reason. Nozzles don't just plug up. What primary filter do you have, has the strainer been replaced, fuel supply line been flushed or blown out? Current pump pressure setting?How's the ignition system on it? There are many other possibilities.

Steamhead

Clogged nozzles

can happen no matter what their size. You've got something else going on there, maybe a filtration issue. If there is no oil filter in the oil line to the burner, have one installed.



What make and model is your boiler or furnace, and what burner is on it?

Doug Hiscock

nozzle clog ...

Marty,

How old is your fuel tank ?   Have you checked the fuel pump strainer ? What does the nozzle strainer look like ? As bill & steam suggested, your fuel quality has been compromised; water, sludge, rust, etc.

icesailor

Nozzle Strainer Clogging:

It is MY personal experience that 99,9999% of nozzle failures that occur after a recent cleaning, are due to poor filtration. Especially with canister type filters Especially with F4B's and Generals and also, not changing pump strainers.

Regardless of how old the tank is, there is a lot of schitt in the oil and in the tanks. I had this problem for an increasing amount of time and cleanings and completely switched to Spin-On's and eliminated this problem for my self 100%. I now use two spin-on's. With Canister type filters, I found way too many call backs for sooting up. I found clogged nozzle strainers. I found that a burner after a few weeks or less of service, that when I pulled the nozzle assembly out of the tube, that oil barely ran out of the assembly. When I removed the nozzle, the oil flowed freely. When I put a new nozzle in, and ran the burner, and then removed the assembly, the oil ran out easily. I changed the strainer on the new/old nozzle and the nozzle worked correctly, and the oil ran out easily. Swapping the old strainer back duplicated the previous problem, the reason for the call back. Pumps running at 140# PSI. The pump side of the strainer will always see 140# PSI. The space between the strainer and the orifice, sees less. If you are running a 1.00 GPH nozzle at 140# pump pressure, you have a nozzle delivering more than 1.00 GPH. If the nozzle orifice "sees" less that 140# PSI and LESS than 100# PSIG, the burner is grossly underfired but way over adjusted for the oil. The same happens with gas burners when the gas street or regulated pressure drops.

With canister type strainers, I find that lots of crud will by-pass the pump strainer and end up in the nozzle strainer which is a much finer filter than the wire mesh pump strainer. So anything that gets by the canister filter will end up in the nozzle strainer.

If you are changing nozzles and not the filters and pump strainers, and have a canister type filter, and you find the situation you are describing, the filters are passing debris.

With spin-on type filters, there is a port for a vacuum gauge and you can tell in an instant if the filter is dirty. When I install a new spin-on filter, I always change the venting plug for a vacuum gauge and mark the "zero" vacuum on the glass with a marker when the burner is running as a reference to how bad the filters are. I always install two filters. I can easily mark the spin-on filter with my name and date of change so there is never a question of when it was last serviced and by whom. I have not found any filter that was changed by someone else that put my name on the filter in my scrawl and date.

Any company that has service contracts and is using Canister filters and no vacuum gauges is wasting money on call backs. It is cheaper to switch filters.

My opinion, you need to upgrade your filtration system.

JMO

martypdji1

clogged again

Hi, it's a Thermopride furnace and I think a Wayne burner, they're about 45 years old. I don't think it's the age of the furnace though cause this seems like a specific problem (not like the furnace burner blew a hole in it and is putting smoke and exhaust through my heating vents). The thing is my nozzle just clogged again, after it's only been in there a few weeks (since the last time I posted about it on here). I like the idea of putting a garber spin on filter in the oil line, and I ordered one today online, I wasn't sure if it would put too much restriction in the line adding another filter with my canister one, but I'll try it. I don't know if I have a nozzle prefilter in the line, I don't see one but I don't know where to look.



The other thing is this time I'll blow all the oil, and dirt and stuff, out of the line, with air, from the tank to the furnace. Last time I let gravity push fuel through the line and there was a bit of dirt in there, but it was too much of a problem to run an air line from our garage to the cellar, but I'll try this time. Hope it helps.

ChasMan

TWO Spin On's

If you are going to open it up and repipe it, I’d put two spin on filters and get rid of that canister. The canister can cause more problems than it solves. The usual oil service for 60 dollars includes opening that can and at best, giving it a swipe with a dirty rag. They then throwi in a cheap felt insert and possibly put it in upside down.

The amount of felt you can blow off of a new insert in enough to clog a nozzle by itself let alone all the crud left in there if the canister isn’t cleaned properly. At least though, with one spinon, the felt dust will get trapped by it. Be sure to put that Garber after the pot filter if you intend to keep the can. It will be interesting to see how long it takes to clog the Garber. That’s why the vac gauge is needed it allows you to see it clogging with the gauge.

You may have a clogged line. Sometimes if you run low or out of fuel that will happen. Or if you are low and get a delivery while the burner is on. Id at least want to blow out the lines if it were me, your getting a lot of clogging. No point in replacing a clogged noz without checking the pump strainer..

And whats up with all the crazy sized nozzel packs laying around. Every house I have owned had that multiple nozzel size issue. It was always due to the tech not having the right one in the van.

billtwocase

filters

If your tank conditions are that bad, then I would recommend having it cleaned or replaced. You can put 10 spin on's inline, they will also plug. I have used General felt filters for decades with no problems. The strainers are spotless, and nozzles are not plugging. They may be just changing a nozzle a and low and behold it starts. Perhaps it's time for a new fuel pump, electrodes, coupling, adjustments, etc.

martypdji1

I guess I've got more problems now.

I got a garber spin on oil filter and put it on as the final filter out of the tank after the felt canister. I also replaced the nozzle again, not sure it needed that, and blew the oil line with air. I went to start the furnace and it only lasted about 10 seconds and shut off. I thought maybe the garber gave extra restriction so I took it off, but the same thing happens. I don't know if I damaged one of the nozzle electrodes (there is unburned fuel around there) or if a piece just went bad, but I guess I'll break down and call the furnace guy again. Do you have any ideas while I'm waiting?

Doug Hiscock

Nozzle choice, more problems...

Marty, YIKES!



When you say, "it shut off", do you mean the burner or just that the fire died? If the OB is still running w/ no fire... ob coupling or fuel pump (faulty internal cutoff valve, plugged strainer). Has anyone adjusted pump pressure wo/ using a proper pressure gauge?

martypdji1

it was air

Well it cost me $65 for another service call and he cleaned the nozzle electrodes off and adjusted it, but he said no fuel was coming out. I knew the tank was more than half full so I didn't know. Turns out when I added the garber fuel filter and blew the line with air, I didn't sufficiently bleed the line (I did bleed it some) and an air pocket formed in the line. Wish I'd have known that to save another $65 call, but that was it.

martypdji1

What's the strainer?

So I guess I'll put the garber oil filter back on to try it, since I originally took it off cause of a completely different problem, and the oil coming out of the garber was bright red whereas the oil out the regular filter is blackish red, and that's what I have now again.



Just out of curiosity, where is this strainer that everyone talks about? I've never seen it, could my furnace not have one? Do you mean the bunch of brass particles pressed together that's part of the nozzle?

billtwocase

strainer

If it is a Suntec pump, there is one inside

martypdji1

Thanks for all the help

Well, I put the Garber fuel filter on about a month ago and so far the furnace has been running smoothly, and I think that was the problem cause like I said, the oil going to the furnace is clear bright red now but when I was having problems it was a blackish with small particles in it. I caused the one problem by not bleeding the air from the line, but overall I'm happy with the results.



I am curious about one thing about this, right now the filter has about a 30 degree tilt from being vertical cause I had to tighten it so it wouldn't leak, if I tighten the fitting so it makes the filter vertical then the fitting isn't tight on the other end and it leaks from there. Teflon tape seems to dissolve from the fuel so that doesn't seem like an option. Am I missing something about this, is there a way to make the filter vertical?

STEVEusaPA

well sure...but..

If you fix it, be prepared to properly bleed it again.

Coming into the filter on both sides you should have a flare nut over the copper lines.   Close the service valve to the tank.  Figure out which way you have to turn the filter.  Loosen up the flare nuts, tighten the threaded fitting into the filter, if already tight, just rotate filter and tighten up flare nuts. Make sure you put one wrench on the flare nut, and another on the fitting its attached to (or the filter housing, so you dont spin the fitting, that is into the housing loose.  Don't go all hercules and tighten them so hard you crack the flares.

Bleed at the pump, with a clear hose into your can, keeping hose end submerged.  Turn on burner, few seconds it will start to whine, open tank valve, and bleed away.  Initially you'll have fuel, then youll have nothing, then air, then it will get clear again.  Could take up to a minute.  So either a few resets, or if you have the kind of control that can be put into Pump Prime mode.

Should do the trick.

Big Ed_4

Flltration

Notice a few mentioned add a second filter on the line . I would like to add ...Adding a second filter of the same microns in series is a waste of time .… It should be a finer filter down stream if in series .… Two of the same sometimes are put in parallel to make a larger filter ... The canister and the spin on type are close in microns ratings , the beauty of the spin on is that you do not get bypassing like you can get though a canister . unless you have a bad O ring ...



As far as nozzle sizing and choice ... The fuel rate should be with in the 80% range of maximum firing rate as a rule .. A combustion test and a temperature diff readng across the furnace needs to be taking to make sure your with in the design range .



Nozzle type , The A nozzle is a common choice today . It was original made for the old shell head burner .The Hollow A type . Makes the fire softer sounding yes but not long lasting compared to a solid or Semi solid .. The shell head was the forerunner of the retention head . Pulling the fire closer to the nozzle ... Yes nozzle change was common on shell heads beside the normal cracked insulaters . W is a good in between ... I found it's the nozzle of choice if corn oil is added in your area too ...