System change brings problems

JD24

Hi Everyone

I have searched a lot of post's and I have learned a lot so far. I also ordered Dan's Book we got steam heat, can't wait for it to arrive and dive in. I have some questions as I am trying to figure out what happened to my system after a recent change. I have a one-pipe steam system, gas Fired Slant Fin boiler. When we bought the house I changed all the air vents to Maid O Mist so I could attempt to balance out the rooms by switching orifice caps. The system has a Probe LWCO not a float and a auto water fill. I also noticed the system does not have Main vents anywhere. Here is the change part: There was a Taco 007 Pump hooked up to the boiler to service a hot water baseboard for the basement with a thermostat that was wired to the pump. This was off the bottom of what I believe was the Hartford loop. The pump went and I was told that because of the water temp being so high for steam that this would be a reoccurring problem and it was recommended that I make a change. Coincidentally the hot water heated was ready to be replaced (from 1996) so we went thankless. The loop that fed the baseboard from the boiler was caped. The boiler was drained, as well as the hot water baseboard and the water was brown. Since this change the system has had some really serious water hammer issues. I mean the house shakes when the system starts to push steam. Prior to this change the system was a little on the loud side but not like this. I am assuming that the pitch on the rads has not changed since I checked them and replaced all the valves to MOM. What should I check first? Pressure? Water level? I also noticed the viewing glass is completely filled and The rads are all spitting out water, even on the second floor. Any advice would be great as the bits and pieces I am getting from other posts may not apply.

Thanks

JD

Long Beach Ed

Water Level and Condition

The water level should be about 1/3 to 1/2 down from the top of the sight glass.  If the glass is filled with water, that is your problem.  Make sure the valves on the sight glass are open. 



Water quality is also important.  If the system was not cleaned by the fitter who installed the indirect tank, oil in the boiler would cause the surging you describe. 



Cleaning oil from a steam boiler isn't a quick job.  You can search here for the procedure and go though the steps.  Water level and quality is probably your main problem. 

BobC

A few possibilities

Have you tried draining water from the boiler to get that water level down? Your auto water feeder could be leaking water into the boiler. I assume the tankless water heater is separate and not in the boiler?



After making sure the sight glass valves are both open and the water level in the boiler are correct I would check the boiler operating pressure carefully. It should be no higher than 2PSI and hopefully less. Also whet pressure is the boiler set to, both the limit and the differential.



Is the water in the sight glass clean and does it bounce up and down a lot when producing steam? the boiler may have to be drained and skimmed to clean out any sediment stirred up by the work that was just done.



Is this a single or two pipe steam system? If you have air vents on the radiators i assume it's single pipe steam. You should have main steam vents on the steam mains in the basement, look around to see if you can see where they might have once been. The radiator air vents are not going to do a good job of getting rid of all the air in the system, you want to vent the radiators slowly and the mains quickly - if this is single pipe steam.



Post some pictures of your boiler and the piping around it. Also get some shots of the pressuretrol, sight glass, and a radiator (both ends).



Bob

JD24

Sight Glass

Thanks ED, THe valves above and below the glass were closed and when I opened them they leaked so they are currently closed, I think the packing washer/bushing is worn out because the leak from the steam, I am not sure if I can replace them or if the entire valve needs to be changed? The Water is murky in the glass and when I drained the boiler in an effort to reduce the water in the glass it was very very dirty. I see the Skim out of the boiler but I am unsure of the process and a concerned I will make matters worse. I have learned a lot from this forum and hope the book will fill in the gaps.

JD24

Trial & Error

Hi Bob

I have tried draining the boiler from the valve located at the bottom of the water line (Is this correct?) Or should I be draining it from the bottom of the hartford loop? The water was really dirty, I don't think the previous owner was maintaining this properly and until reading the forum I had no experience with boilers. The system is single pipe. The tankless is totally separate and now feeds the baseboard system and RHW. The pressure was at 4 on the gauge at the top of the Pig tail when the system was running. I am not home so I don't know the presurol settings I think the cut in was .2 . I will post pics when I get home. As I replied to Ed the valves on the sight glass leak from the stems, not sure if this is fixable with a packing washer/bushing or if it needs to be replaced. I have looked for Mains vents any where and at one point the entire basement ceiling was exposed when we remodeled. I didn't even see a spot where they might have been, but maybe the pics will expose that?

I have most of my first floor radiators on a 4 or 5 MOM< and the second floor is a 6 in the bedroom because there are 2 large units. In the kids rooms I have much smaller rads they are short and long about 6-8 fins and very narrow, they rarely produce enough heat so I put C on them in efforts to get all the air out of them and fill them with steam. I am not sure if these are sized properly of If I just have the venting wrong.

I am on the border of Queens/ Nassau in Floral Park/ Bellerose Maybe a pro can get me back to square one as the folks who have done the tankless said they are not that fluent in Steam systems.

Next post is pics!

BobC

Get them here

You can get gauge glass washers from a supply house and from McMaster-Carr online. I bought a box of 5/8" gage glass washers from them a couple of years back for about $7, be careful removing the glass and especially scraping off the old rubber washers so you don't break the glass.



http://www.mcmaster.com/#=ftl8ul



You really need to have that sight glass working properly for safety reasons.



Bob

BobC

valve

There should be a valve at the base of the boiler so you can get water out of the bottom of the boiler. Show any valves on the boiler and hartford loop in one of your pictures. last year I wrote up a procedure for changing a gauge glass, If I can find it I'll repost it.





Found it -





clean / replace gauge glass





@ December 28, 2010 12:35 PM in How to Clean Out Glass Gauge



To clean out the gauge glass you have to remove it and before doing that

you want to have a pair of Gauge Glass Washers on hand and probably a

new Gauge glass as well. the process of removing the glass will destroy

the gauge glass washers and you may damage the glass while taking it

out.







Once you have the washers and a spare gauge glass you can take the old

one out but first shut the boiler down and let it cool a bit..







First close the valve above and below the glass to isolate it. Next

loosen the hex bonnet nuts that hold the glass in place and slide them

towards the middle of the glass. Now you should be able to lift the

glass out, it is longer than the open space you have so you have to

slide it down into the lower valve so you can tilt the top clear of the

top valve. You will see remnants of the old washers on the glass and

stuck inside the bonnet nuts. It usually takes a knife or screwdriver to

scrape the residue out of the bonnet nuts. Clean the glass with some

soap and a bottle brush, or just use a new one and clean up the old one

as a spare.







To put things back you have to slide a washer onto one end of the glass

and then slide both bonnet nuts on; the slide the washer onto the other

end of the glass. now you have to put the bottom of this assembly into

the lower valve and then tilt the top of the glass to get it into the

top valve. Now hold the glass so it is centered in between the two

valves and tighten one of the nuts so it engages a couple of valve

threads. then tighten the other nut to engage the other valve. Tighten

both nuts hand tight and then use a wrench to tighten them another turn

or so.







Now open the valves above and below the glass and fire up the boiler. As

it comes up to steam you may see some weeping from one of the

valve/glass ends, just tighten up that nut enough to shop the weeping.

Over the next few days you may have to tighten the bonnet nuts a bit

more.









Bob

Long Beach Ed

Cleaning Sight Glass

You don't have to remove the glass to clean it.   You can clean it using the boiler's steam and the valves on the glass.  You should be able to find the procedure using a search of this site.   If you break the glass you'll need two washers, a new glass and a tool to cut it to the right length, so don't take it out.



Also, there are packing nuts around the gauge glass stems.  Tightening the packing nut will stop the leak. 



Unfortunately you chose a poor contractor to do your work.  It's unfortunate you'll be paying twice to find a guy to finish where he left off. 



If I were you, I'd flush out that dirty water, refill the boiler to the proper level and go from there. 

JD24

Pictures

Here are some pics of the system. I drained the boiler, filled it again and drained it. I opened the sight glass valves and tightened the stem nut till the leak stopped. I also let the auto water fill go to check if it was woking and if it was stoping at a good water level. All is much better as far as the water hammer and the water spraying fro the air vents. I did notice that later in the day the sight glass was full again. Is it possible that the auto water feed is set wrong? I mean there was once a hot water base board loop connected so maybe its set to add more water ?



Sorry the pics are hard to take because of 2 walls around the boiler so its a bit tight to get the whole pipe scheme in one shot.

BobC

Leak?

Glad to hear tightening up those bonnet nuts cured your leak. that sure is easier than taking it all apart.



If the water feeder stopped at the correct level on initial refilling the level should be ok. If the level is increasing after a period of hours it could be the water feeder is trickling a tiny amount of water even though it should be off. If you can shut off the feed valve so the water feeder has no water to feed that should tell you if that is the culprit. Do it on a day you can observe the boiler for a long time so you make sure the water level is not dropping drastically as the boiler fires. If that water level drops by an appreciable level wait and see if it slowly returns - assuming it does not drop below about 1/4 of the sight glass. All of that may indicate the boiler return pipe is clogged and water takes a long time to return to the boiler causing the auto water feeder to supply water that eventually overfills the boiler. If that pipe is clogged it is going to need snaking out and perhaps replacement.



Do you heat your domestic hot water with that boiler? If so there could be a tiny pinhole in the hot water coil that is leaking water into the boiler very slowly causing the sight glass to slowly fill up. If that coil is leaking it is going to need replacing.



I noticed your pressuretrol might be set a bit high. The tab on the front should be set down to 0.5 on that front tab using the adjustment screw on top of the pressuretrol. If you take the screw of the front of the pressuretrol you can remove that front cover and make sure that white wheel is set to 1. Don't touch the wires on the switch, they are are carrying 24 or 120v. Setting the pressuretrol up this way should let the systen cycle between 1.5 an 0.5PSI. Higher pressure just wastes fuel and make all problems worse.



Does your boiler have one or two risers coming off the top of the boiler, I can't tell from the photo's because of the way it's boxed in. If there are two boiler risers coming off the top the house steam main should connect to the boiler header after them and then the header should connect down to the equalizer and the boiler return port.



Does the house steam main start high above the boiler and then slowly run downhill as it travels around the basement? that would be a parallel flow system and the end of that steam main should drop down and return to the boiler return port. The steam and the condensate run in the same direction. If the steam main slopes up as it goes away from the boiler it is a counterflow system, the steam and condensate run in opposite directions.



The picture below shows a counterflow system. A parallel flow system would reverse the slope on the main and the condensate return pipe would be at the end of the steam main not near the beginning. Note also the steam takeoff for the steam main is between the last boiler riser and the equalizer to goes down to the boiler return.



In either case a main vent is needed to insure steam is available to all the radiators at the same time so they heat up evenly. If there are no main vents on the steam main(s?) they will have to be added at some point. All the piping in the basement should be insulated with 1" fiberglass pipe insulation to make the heat go upstairs.



Try sketching out the steam main with the radiator takeoffs and show any return pipes that go back to the boiler return port. Figure out how long that steam main is and what size pipe it is, outside circumference will do for the pipe size.



Flush that boiler a few more times to get the water clean when you have time.



Bob

JD24

The Water Feeder Bandit!

Hi Bob

I have to start this reply again by thanking you for sharing all your knowledge, You have educated me tremendously and have saved me some $ I am sure.



I followed your advice to shut the water supply to the auto feeder. I marked the sight glass while the system was off and then let the boiler run a couple of cycles after the cool down of the Rads I went down to check the water level and it was spot on the mark. So after this I opened the water feed to the auto feeder and left the house. When I returned a couple of hours later the water was above the mark. Does this mean that the water feeder is leaking ?

Does the entire feeder need to be replaced or just a part, I am going to try and tackle this on my own if it is not a intense job, I am experienced with electric and sweating copper. is there ere ally any more to it than that?



My hot water is supplied by a tankless unit, so I know that is not an issue.



I opened the presuretroll and set the dial to 1 (it was on 2) and I set the front to .5 from your recommendation. I also flushed the boiler a couple of times and have noticed that the sight glass water usually shows up a little murky. I also noticed that it bounces a bit when the boiler is on so I think I am going to need to skim the boiler, I read a article posted on the site and I have some questions that I am sure you can answer. I noticed that the skim out has a nipple with a end cap on it, can I just replace the end cap with a ball valve ? This way for future skims its ready to go?

the directions on the boiler say to hook up a temporary valve and then replace the nipple and end cap. Why? Is there a certain valve I should use? I thought these would work web link



Also they say to not let the boiler make steam by keeping the temperature at a certain range, How do you monitor temperature ? My boiler does not have a temp gauge on it that I see, can I install one ?



and too answer your questions from the previous post I have one riser from the boiler all pipes are 2", the riser meets 2 T's that feed the mains and then the pipe elbows down to the return of the boiler. there is one pipe coming back 1" Condensate line that feeds into the hartford loop. It looks as if my system would be a parallel flow ? the only main that is fully exposed is about 12' -15' the other Main disappears into the ceiling and is hard to trace, most of the pipe is insulated except for the riser out of the boiler (should this be?)

Also how would I install vents? and where ? is this something I could do? Or is this require a more professional skill set?



Bob I also have some other questions about radiator sizing for rooms, Ill make a separate post after your reply to this one. Thank you again if your ever in the Floral Park, N.Y. Area I owe you a case of beer for sure!

Abracadabra

which water feeder?

What model water feeder do you have? Many MM feeders have a replaceable valve.

BobC

We all start out the same

Most everybody on this board started out with just a vague understanding of their steam system. They learned by reading and asking questions just like you are. When you've digested that book you bought, pick up a copy of "The Lost Art of Steam Heating", that is great read. The time will come when your able to help someone with their system and we'll improve the condition of the nations steam systems bit by bit.



I've never liked those auto water feeders for someone who lives in the house because some people ignore their boilers because they have the auto feeder and the system slowly goes to pot. By checking a bouler several times a week you can usually find and fix problems while they are still minor. Hopefully you can get a rebuild kit for yours, if not tear it out and just use a valve.



That valve should work for skimming but It should be capped when not in use so nobody can inadvertently turn it on and scald themselves. Once that boiler is skimmed it probably won't need another skimming for a long time, it's not the kind of thing you do on a regular basis. Skimming can be done cold and hot, when you do it hot the water would like to be just below the boiling point so it's nice and calm but hot enough to get any skim of oil on the surface to easily flow out. Just use your own judgement, it's not an exact science. Fire the boiler occasionally just to keep the temperature of the water up as you skim. The key with it is to skim real slow, just a trickle so you fill a bucket in hours not minutes. This thread has aome good info on skimming - http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/139868/Owner-Field-service-tech



Lowering that pressure should help everything work better, does the system seem better now as far as noise and even heating of the radiators? the next step will be to figure out whee main vents can be added.



Bob

JD24

Water feeder or Low water cut off

Hey Bob is it possible that the probe for the low water cut off is dirty or bad and that is signaling the auto water feeder to over fill the boiler? I have been draining the water down to the proper level a lost every day. I need to way till I have some time and I am going to try and change the auto water feeder but I am curious if I should look at the probe and have both parts handy when I have the time to mess with it. the lower pressure has definitely quieted the system down a bit until the water level gets to hi and then I hear the water hammering and it reminds me to go drain some water again. Not so much on the even heating some rooms still seem to be hot and others cold but I am beginning to wonder if the rads in the 2 smaller rooms on the second floor are too small to do the job. I have them both rented with a MOM C so they get hot quick but its always cold in the rooms am I venting too quick? should I go down to a 5 ?

BobC

LWCO and balance

One might ask if the water level is actually dropping and if so why? my boiler takes about 1/2" every three weeks and that is a bit much.



The LWCO could be dirty or just flaky, does it have a led to show when it is actively trying to feed water or shut the boiler down? You would have to sit and wait for it to activate so you could monitor it. Then you would know if it was the LWCO or the auto feeder that was at fault. I don't use auto water feeders but I've found probe type LWCO's pretty reliable. They do need to be cleaned to keep them working right. When you removve that LWCO to clean it make sure you bring the noiler up to steam afterwards to drive off the oxygen from the freshly added water.



Feeding water into a boiler when it's not necessary is not good for it's longevity. If you shut the water feed to the boiler down, and monitor it daily, how long does it take for the water level to drop?





Are the two cold rooms poorly insulated compared to rest of the house or do they have more walls exposed to the exterior (dormers)?  How big are those radiators compared to other similar sized rooms? My house is a 90+ yr old NE colonial that is about as airtight as a barn. Two of my bedrooms are about 10X11 and they have radiators with an EDR of 25, the ceiling is insulated but not the walls (and these are dormers). The front bedroom cools quicker because of its position over an open front porch - the wind off the North Atlantic can get real chilly.



If all the radiators are vented with fast vents the system may be shutting down because the thermostat is getting satisfied too quick. The MOM C vents at 0.283cfm and that is pretty aggressive, are the other vents in this range?. Do the radiators all get hot at about the same time and do all the rooms heat up about the same initially? Having all the normal rooms vent slowly and these problem rooms vent fast might give you better balance.



Venting the mains fast and the radiators slowly works best for most systems, but all systems are different so what works for one will not always work for others. You have to watch it work and adjust as you go to find the right balance.



Bob