YASN - Yet another steam newbie - questions about my system

ChrisJ

pigtail

Is that pressuretrol installed directly into the boiler without a pigtail?  That can't be a good thing?



Maybe its just me but that boiler looks A LOT like my neighbors American Radiator boiler.

Dave in QCA

No Equalizer Either

I was noticing the same thing gentlemen.  No Hartford loop and no equalizer.  I find it interesting that Hoffman Specialty, in the diagrams of different types of steam setups, still shows this exact set up as being OK.  I can see the point that is all of the piping is large enough, and there is absolutly no wet return, the steam mains themselves become the equalizer, (sort of).  However, the disaster waiting to happen in this type of setup involves a King valve.  If a king valve is present, (and fortunately it is not on this particular system) and someone decides to close the valve while the boiler is firing, pressure in the boiler will very quickly push all of the boiler water out the return line and up in dry return flowing backwards in the steam main.  Of course, the LWCO would shut of the fire and save the day, but it's still a potentially dangerous situation.

This boiler is probably just fine left alone, but an eqaulizer and hartford loop would be a great improvement when this boiler is eventually replaced.

DAXQ_2

Missing things

Definitely cannot dispute anything your saying - as I have no idea about those things. However, I am expecting that when this boiler finally gives up the ghost and needs to be replaced, that I am going to need a true boiler magician to re-pipe all the near boiler piping so that the transition works.



I do find it odd though that it has been this way for a pretty long time. We thing the boiler itself is original to the house having added the low water cutoff and auto feed later in its life. You don't think it is something I need to worry about do you? I have lived in the house all of just under a year, and this is my first venture into Steam Heating. Would not want to subject my kids or family to anything potentially dangerous. 

Dave in QCA

Not to worry

As I said, Hoffman Specialty still shows this piping setup as an acceptable option.  Modern boilers would require an equalizer in the close boiler piping.  And, the hartford loop is still a good idea even though you don't have a wet return.  But, for your current system, it's working fine and not hazardous.  Most important thing is make sure your LWCO are flushed regularly and that the operate correctly.

DAXQ_2

wheeew

Well we are currently running Manually (so I check it any time I think about it - maybe twice a day) since the Auto Feed is still flooding things. I think we are awaiting parts for the float or something and the smaller gauge. Then I will get to begin the battle of the Home Warranty folks who are trying to say that the Auto Feeder is not considered part of the boiler.



Any way thanks for the information - I know this boiler will not last forever and suspect my real battle will come when it is time to replace this one with a modern one.

ChrisJ

lasting

DAXQ did you see my post at the bottom of this thread?



That boiler may last a long long time.  My main concern would be making sure your LWCO turns the burner off everytime you do a blow down once a week.  If it ever fails to turn the burner off have it fixed immediately.



But as I asked in my post at the bottom of the thread,  Why isn't the pressuretrol installed with a pigtail?

DAXQ_2

pigtail

The Pressuretrol goes straight into the boiler (AFAIK) there is a picture in this post that shows it pretty well. When the plumber replaced it, the old one was installed exactly the same I believe. 



Yess I did see the post - and thanks for all the inputs - kind of find this posting approach difficult to follow sometimes - need to be able to arrange by date or something. And yes, I am keeping an eye on it (the burner and the water level) until we can get it fixed. Would there be installation instructions for the new Pressuretrol that indicated it should be on a pigtail or something? I will see if I can investigate it - for that matter will also investigate a pigtail! TML (posted earlier) is doing the work on the boiler for me

DAXQ_2

pigtail 2

Would a pigtail be the same as a siphon? - found a pdf for the PA404A Honeywell Pressuretrol Controller (see attached) and looks like it states that a siphon must always be connected between the unit and the boiler or steam line. The siphon acts as a trap to prevent corrosive vapors or scale, resulting from the use of boiler compounds from damaging the control.  I will ask the fella working on it.

ChrisJ

pigtail

Yep,



Pigtail and Siphon are the same thing.

DAXQ_2

siphon

I will bring up to TML. Thanks

Steamhead

It's the same basic type of boiler

a 3-pass type that could burn coal, oil or gas.



DAXQ, has your boiler had a proper combustion test? It looks like you have an old atmospheric-type conversion burner in it, that may never have been tested.

DAXQ_2

combustion

We have owned the house and the boiler for just under a year. I know the previous owner had a fella that works on steam engine trains in MO verify that it was all up to snuff and he said this boiler should work fine for us for many years. Apparently they have done some work on, but it also passed an inspection prior to purchase.

 

No idea if they were just blowing smoke to sell the house, but for the most part that is all we have. Well that and it seems to be heating the house and doing everything it is supposed to do very well - aside from the issue we are having now with it flooding that TLM is addressing.

DAXQ_2

steam

Did you mean should not? I am thinking once I get the boiler to stop flooding - I will look at replacing those main valves. 

DAXQ_2

knobs

would anyone know what those black knobs on the front are for? Just curious. 

Steamhead

What part of MO

are you in? 

DAXQ_2

location

I am actually in west central IL

Steamhead

Near Macomb?

I know that area, have some relatives there.



You might be able to get Dave "Boilerpro" Bunnell to come down. He's based in Chicago but has been known to travel for steam. Go here:



http://www.heatinghelp.com/professional/105/Boiler-Professionals-Inc

DAXQ_2

Outstanding

sounds great will keep that in mind when the time comes to replace the boiler. With the work they are doing on it now I am hoping that will not be fore a while though. 

Dave in QCA

w central IL

Located in Rock Island here.

DAXQ_2

that as well

Will keep you in mind as well. From everything I have been learning so far, there is a real art and skill to replacing an old steam boiler system that entails quite a bit of skill. A buddy of mine had his replaced and now has an awful water hammer that the installer cannot seem to figure out (much like many of the horror stories Dan has in his books). So to date he is stuck with a water hammer that is making his dogs a nervous wreck! I told him a bout Dan's books, and this web site, so maybe he will get the help he needs to fix that too. 

DAXQ_2

More progress

Think we have finally got this one licked (pretty much replaced everything on the boiler except the boiler cavity itself I think). Just finished today, and I thought I would update this post:



Image 24 - new pigtail siphon on the pressuretrol

imaqe 25 - pigtail

image 26 - new water level and auto cut off - also new sight glass - the other did not survive the operation

image 27 - close up

image 28 - close up

image 29 - new gauge

image 30 - close up



This spring/summer I will look at replacing or cleaning the main valves in the basement, and will check out the other radiator valves.

Hap_Hazzard

Just noticed no one answered this.

I'd have to look closer to be sure, but judging from the hand wheels and where they're located, they look like try-cocks. They put them just above and below the water line, so if you get water out of the lower one and not the upper one, your water level is about right.

DAXQ_2

Knobs

Ahhh - on the new setup the are knobs at the top and bottom of the sight glass too.

DAXQ_2

Totally bummed

Well as it turns out we have gone through all this and the boiler is still flooding the site glass. We have literally replaced just about everything except the boiler chamber itself (and I am not sure about the float in the egg looking thing). Thought we had it licked this last time with the third valve replacement. We have completely drained this boiler trying to get envy thing out of the radiators and the boiler itself. Then we fill it up to the correct level - this last time it was even level with the casting line (instead of higher than it). And just like every other time, when I first flush boiler (as I am supposed to do weekly when it is running) it fills up the sight glass to the top.



Any suggestions for what to look at are greatly appriciated.

ChrisJ

hmm

If it were mine I'd get rid of the mechanical autofill. My guess is your condensate is returning slow and the mechanical autofill just keeps filling and filling.

nicholas bonham-carter

Auto/over-fill problems

Put the new low-pressure gauge on the same pigtail as the pressuretrol, and watch the pressure it as steam is made( maybe next winter!). If the pressure rises above 1.5 psi, then some adjustment is needed, as you only need a few ounces of pressure to heat the house!

It is also possible with the piping you have, that water is being carried up into the pipes during steaming, and this will temporarily starve the boiler, triggering the auto/over-feed. If you can keep that turned off, while still being sure the low water cut-off works, then do so.

I did not see on your list any mention of replacement of the main vents. Remember "air is the enemy, to be chased out like the raccoon from the garbage can" (who first posted that marvellous description anyway?)

Make sure any gauge, or pressuretrol is protected by pigtails, and keep the accurate low pressure gauge with the p-trol on the same pigtail.-NBC

DAXQ_2

Suggestions

Thanks guys for the suggestions, I will certainly look into them. My original problem started with a small leak in the auto fill, and we have only been in the house for a year. I know for certain that it was not flooding before (when we first took over) as I distinctly recall trying to determine where the site glass leve should be - so I am certain it was not flooding over the top like it does now. It heats the house very well, and is considerably quiet given its age - I just want to make sure it is safe and still running as efficiently as it can. I am pretty confident that I can manually set the level, and as long as the auto shutoff works - I think it should be fairly safe.

DAXQ_2

Manual

I turned off just the lower feed valve to the auto feeder and manually dropped everything to the casting line. Once the water finally leveled just above the casting line, I turned the feed valve back opened. The water level did not change and no water was feeding in. Now if I had done the same thing before - bleeding things with that valve opened, just as fast as the water came out I would hear it adding new water and it would fill the view glass. Now the water is at the casting line, andiamfiring the boiler. Keeping an eye on things as it heats.

DAXQ_2

Manual

I turned off just the lower feed valve to the auto feeder and manually dropped everything to the casting line. Once the water finally leveled just above the casting line, I turned the feed valve back opened. The water level did not change and no water was feeding in. Now if I had done the same thing before - bleeding things with that valve opened, just as fast as the water came out I would hear it adding new water and it would fill the view glass. Now the water is at the casting line, andiamfiring the boiler. Keeping an eye on things as it heats.

DAXQ_2

Manual part 2

Sorry for the double post - I ran a heating cycle last night and I think the auto fill or feeder is filling the sight glass and the float chamber before the boiler can react to the change in the water level. Then the boiler reacts and we get a flooding it can be watched inch by inch in the sight glass when flushing the boiler after it was previously level:



Started boiler after setting casting line level. 9:15

9:24 needle on Oz/in sqrd is bouncing on zero boiler is warmin 

9:27 water level has dipped below casting line and is lightly bouncing

9:34 water level is just above the casting bouncing better and a bit cloudy needle is still bouncing (a little less than the water) on zero

9:38 pipes going out are good an hot, one rear center return is hot other two are cold (other rear is a little warmer than the front)

9:40 rear return hot, water level bouncing at casting, needle bouncing of zero

9:45 front return getting hot , needle bouncing zero, water bouncing at line

9:49 front return hot

10.06 mid fire I dropped the water level and theburnercutout. - after the water filled backup to past the cast line about 1 inch theburnerkickedbackonandcontinuedtoheat.



This morning, the water level was still at the casting line - don't know if it ran while I slept or not, but the boiler is warm. Then this morning I flushed the boiler as I normally would on the weekend, and for each time iopenedthe yellow bleed valve - as soon as the bleed valve opens, you can hear water rushing in and when everything settles, the water line is about 1 inch higher than it was before. Second time another inch until the sight glass completely fills.



Just like e last time I did this, I think it is also clear I need to replace those main vents so the heat disperses more evenly and faster than it is now.

DAXQ

new main vent

Gonna try and replace one of those main vents. Going after the slowest side first and will see if I can clean the one I remove as suggested earlier.

nicholas bonham-carter

Efficient operation

Don't indulge in false economy if you are really serious about economical/comfortable operation. Replace all of those vents with gorton 2's. I have 55 rads and 18 gorton #2's on 6 dry returns(1,050,000 btu, which may give you an idea of how many you need. I used my low-pressure gauge to read the "back-pressure" during the venting phase as air is beginning to escape. True economy comes from a venting arrangement which allows the air to escape, rather than having to be forced out by the gas company on your dime!. You could measure the pipe diameters, and lengths, along with the volume of the steam chest of the boiler; or you can look at the gauge and stop adding gortons, when you see a 2 ounce back-pressure on the dial.--nbc

DAXQ_2

Mmmm

I was really just trying to get things back to operating state by replacing broken things. This is what was on there before, so this is what my plumber got me. I got the old one off and was wondering if I should just use some Teflon tape and put the new one one? Or does it need something else? Was also wondering if these are cleanable or is it considered a consumable item. I have two other mains and maybe will try the gortons on them if it's possible.

Steamhead

How long are your steam mains

and what pipe size are they?

DAXQ_2

Length

This run that the Hoffman is going on is 58 feet and I think the pipe is 2 or 2.5 inch.

DAXQ_2

Oops

Sorry think the pipe is 1.5 not 2

Rod

Table for Calculating Pipe Size

Hi- Measure the circumference of the pipes and use the attached table to determine pipe size.

- Rod

DAXQ_2

I think u were right on

Usin my manual method seems to be working which I think verifies your original post - sorry for just noticing it now - what's that they say life is what happens when your busy making plans or something!