School Steam Systems

furnacefigher15

For the inspectors sake

I would leave a loop in the line (cause that's the Hartford) I would just make the connection at the bottom.



So the pipe would go down a 12 to 18 inches lower then the new connection point, then back up to it.



You will have to do a little more piping, but well worth it.

furnacefigher15

For the inspectors sake

furnacefigher15

One more thing

You also need a check valve to keep the pumped return from pushing water into the steam riser drips float. The pumped pressure may force the float valve open and slam water in to the steam drip leg.



It might just be easiest to either re locate the pumped return downstream from the tie ins from the gravity drains, and use one check valve for all the gravity tie ins.



Or you may end up having to add a small receiver to handle the gravity returns, and pump that into the larger receiver.

Owen

Hartford Loop

Frustration level rising!! Can't make it work!! AAAARRGHHH!??

I'll take a short break & try again.

furnacefigher15

The photo

did not come through

Owen

Photo of Hartford Loop

I can't get my application "Paintbrush" to send through the photo with my notations clarifying what I understand your suggestion to be. Bummer. I'll keep trying. One of them went through earlier, so I know it works.



Anywho, I talked to the owner of the firm we use to do most of the work that I or someone else here can't do, such as installing the boilers, of course, welding on the pressure vessels & steam lines, etc. He was skeptical. He felt that as long as the pumped line was going in below the boiler water line, it wouldn't make a difference if it was low or high. I kind of like your concept of down low. I know there is a marked difference between the temp of the steam chamber, the temp just below the waterline and the water temp at the bottom of the boiler, not to mention the relatively cold condensate return. Seems to me that could be a problem. He admitted he did not know what causes the surging.

I eliminated chemical treatment as a cause by not using any for almost a month. 0 chemical, surging.

Regardless, nothing can be done until the weather moderates and I can drain the thing to have them weld on a thread-a-let if it is ultimately decided to go that route. I like it, and will keep trying to send that pic so I'm sure of what you mean.

Thanks for your help.

Owen

Direct Instead of Check Valve?

Reroute the pumped line directly into the receiver? Hell, why didn't I think of that at the time? Didn't know enough me'be?

Yeah, that's a gotta do.



It didn't come with any provision for the required fitting welded to the tank, being custom made by our main vendor, because I did not ask for it. It makes perfect sense and may be contributing to the overall malfunction going on here.

I'm already thinking of a way to get this done. Patience and planning are involved because I'd need help, (I'm a white belt in welding) and authorization.



I can see this eliminating a whole host of weirdness.

Strange gurgles, burps and hick-ups.

Uneven heating. Yeah.

Thanks Again

furnacefigher15

It does mattter

"Anywho, I talked to the owner of the firm we use to do most of the work that I or someone else here can't do, such as installing the boilers, of course, welding on the pressure vessels & steam lines, etc. He was skeptical. He felt that as long as the pumped line was going in below the boiler water line, it wouldn't make a difference if it was low or high. I kind of like your concept of down low. I know there is a marked difference between the temp of the steam chamber, the temp just below the waterline and the water temp at the bottom of the boiler, not to mention the relatively cold condensate return. Seems to me that could be a problem. He admitted he did not know what causes the surging."



Most feed water pumps have a pretty good amount of push. You have to think like the water.



You are water being pumped at 15 to 20 psi into a bull of a tee. Above you is 2 inches of water and then empty pipe with easily compressed air or steam and nothing else. Below you is a solid column of water 10 to 20 inches deep with no give.



Which way would you go? Water is lazy by the way. It won't just do what we want, we have to make it.



As far as feed water temp goes, changing the location of where it tie to the boiler will have no effect.



Once the system is up and going, the feed water temp will naturally rise.

Owen

Hartford Loop

The nipple of the Hartford Loop is 2-1/4" below the "normal" water line level (that is to the top of the pipe).

BTW, the condensate return line is threaded black iron, but all the steam lines are welded connections on the boiler.

furnacefigher15

Proof of concept

You could temporarily reroute the boiler feed in at the boiler drain to more or less mimic a permanent re-pipe to a low point on the equalizer.



Something I ran across while thumbing through The Lost Art of Steam Heating:



Simple water quality test:

take a sample of fresh water in a glass, and also a sample of the boiler water in a separate glass.



Put them side by side in a microwave and set it for 3 to 5 minutes, and see if both samples boil at the same time, in a similar way.



If the boiler needs a cleaning, the boiler water will foam, or have a delayed and uneven boiling pattern.



If the boiler water doesn't boil right, then that is also a major factor in the priming and carryover problem you are having.

Owen

Test

By boiler "drain" do you mean a mud leg?

Big two inch line at each corner?

We're talking a WM 94. The thing is 10' long.

And running up to 9#.

I don't know about that. Please elaborate.



The water test, I'm tryin' that tomorrow.

There is, of course, in "Greening Steam" a method of

testing boiler water involving pipe fittings and a torch,

but I found it kinda inconclusive.



BTW, (DH, in case you're lurking) I bought the book.

It hasn't arrived yet, but I'm looking forward to it.