Problem with Gerber and can anyone id this toilet

acl10

Problem with Gerber and can anyone id this toilet. This toilet is on the 2nd floor. It looks like it takes a flushometer which it had before. It had a coyne and it didnt flush so I tried a Sloan which also doesnt flush well due to low pressure. What can I do about this. Are there any tanks that would fit this toilet. Can someone ID the model of this toilet. Would a pston type do better with low pressure. I think  its a 3.5 toilet.

icesailor

Toilet:

Who or did you put that bowl in?

It looks like an old (and I mean VERY old) tank type two piece bowl that someone (you?) adapted to a flushometer type toilet.  Those tank type bowls take a 2" flush ell and depend on the flow of water to flush them. They are all 14" rough bowls and flush into the back. Flushometer bowls flush into the top. Maybe there are some really old ones that flush into the back but I've never seen one.

Someone (You?) did some clever adaption to get that flush ell adapted to the flushometer to the outlet of the toilet bowl.

I promise you that that is not a 3.5 GPF toilet. It is the jumbo model of over 7 GPF. If someone (you?) bought a Sloan repair kit that was for a 1.3, 1.6, or 3.5 GPF flushmoeter valve, it won't flush the toilet. You need the one the that is for the highest flow. That bowl is probably a "Wash down" type toilet. Not a Syphon type. It needs a lot of flowing water through a large pipe to make it flush .

If YOU didn't do it, it may have been a really old bowl from a high tank toilet with a 1 1/4" flush pipe. There was something unusual about the flush pipe that I won't go into other than to say that a 3.5 GPF flushometer probably wouldn't flush it.

Unless you only have 10# pressure to the floor being served, and it is fed with 1/2" copper and increased to 1" to the flushometer, you need to change the bowl to what belongs there.

Is this a Scrap Yard Supply Co. sourced renovation trying to make a modern house bathroom look old? Using all those vintage plumbing fixtures on the cheap? You're finding that it isn't so cheap now. As old as someone is trying to make that install, they didn't use copper run outs back as old as that is being purported to be. It would have been brass screw pipe.

Put the proper bowl on there and it will flush if you have enough water pressure.

And looking again at the photos, I realize that it is brass screw pipe. More. There is never room enough for a 1" IPS ball balve between the wall and the valve. That bown never belonged there. It may have once been a two piece wall mounted tank type. Someone put a flushometer on it.

No, a Piston Type Flushometer won't work better. Get a high flow repair kit and it may flush.

kcopp

wow Rube Goldberg....

must have worked there. Good try though. I would replace the whole thing. Move the water supply down to the bottom of the wall and go get a 14" rough, std, tank type toilet. Gerber makes a Viper model that works well.

acl10

It was there when I bought the house

It was there when I bought the house. It had a Coyne delany in it

acl10

Which Gerber Avalanche or Viper will fit

Which Gerber Avalanche or Viper will fit the one I have. I see in the HD Supply catalog they have round bow 15 high elongated bowl 15 1/4 or 17 high. Which will fit to replace the one I have?

Do these Gerber toilets get stuffed easily

kcopp

be patient....

when posting. You need to wait a minute or so after posting .... that prevents the messy multiple posts.... The ROUGH- IN is what you need to look at. Not the height. toilets come in 12" standard , 10" close and 14" which is what you probabaly have. Measure from the back wall to the bolts on the bottom.... No they flush well. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zL5hZ5tivLw

acl10

Mesurments

The bottom of the toilet mesures about 19 inches the hight is 15 inches. There is a little over 12 inches between the wall and the toilet.

Some more pictures including pictures of the holse that the water comes out of. Do the make a tank to fit this toilet?

As noted before which Gerber would replace it?

icesailor

Water Closet:

Maybe it was when you bought the house. It wasn't there when the house was built. Guaranteed. The previous owner was  Rubin Goldberg or he hired his cousin Myron Goldberg to do the conversion.

If the water service entering the building from the street isn't a minimum of 1" ID pipe of copper tube, and doesn't rum un-reduced to the second floor to the toilet where it comes through the wall, it wasn't original.

If you measure from the center of the closet bolts to the back wall, it will be, 14" +/-. That's why you have enough room to get a 1" IPS ball valve in as a shut-off when there is a shut off already.

I doubt seriously that you will find a Gerber or any other flushometer bowl that will fit that. It was in the beginning, a tank type toilet. It needs to go back as a tank type.

Hopefully, it doesn't have a 4" lead bend, flanged over the wood floor and closet screws holding the bowl to a rotten wood floor. That's another fix that requires a "Wiping Flange". You will look long and hard to find one and even harder to find someone who knows what it is. Let alone install it.

(Hint: You have to solder the brass flange to the lead pipe,)

Also, I know of no china manufacturer making 14: rough bowls. They all use 12" bowls with a tank with a 2" extension on the back of the tank.  Toto makes an adjustable flange toilet but they cost Mucho Dinero, $$$$$$$$,

acl10

From the back wall to the bolts is 17 inches as you see in the picture

From the back wall to the bolts is 17 inches as you see in the picture. Which Gereber in the picture will fit

icesailor

Water Closets II:

The two nut heads on the front and sides of the toilet, they are over 14". Maybe 16"  from the back wall. There is probably a significant structural floor member below the toilet. There should be screws in the back holes. Or else, the bowl isn't screwed down over the outlet. If the front holes are over the waste pipe, the back holes keep the toilet from flopping over if a bariatric user leans left or right. Either way, the toilet needs a lead wiping flange because it isn't bolted to the flange, it's screwed to the floor. It's already leaking because of the black staining around the back.

Was the previous owner/mechanic trying to make a 1920 period bath suite? The failed. That pedestal lav you have there which you will then next be trying to connect will really put you over the edge. Unless there is a wall mounted drain, you can't drain that with a full "S" Trap through the floor like original.

icesailor

Fitting:

None of the Gerbers will fit.

If you want to make it right, you need to get a Toto with the adjustable flange outlet. They will go to 18" Center or more. No other toilet will fit.

This is beyond a DIY project with help of Orange House employees.

kcopp

you really need....

a licenced plumber.

acl10

Can I get a tank for this toilet anywhere

Can I get a tank for this toilet anywhere

icesailor

Tanls:

See those two deficits in the wall behind the toilet? One to the left of the outlet pipe and one beside the 1" brass nipple? That's where the tank was mounted to the wall. You need a plumber to look at the other side of the wall because there must be access to the pipes there. Otherwise, those two holes wouldn't be there and patched. Any tank with no mounting holes in the bottom will work. If there are any salvage yards that take old plumbing fixtures may have one. Just make sure you get a cover that fits it. It may not be cheap. Antiques never are.

If you can photo the back of the wall, someone may tell you what you need to do. It's difficult from here to know what kind of mess was made. You can purchase all new parts for the tank. If you find one, all the rubber parts are shot. Repairing two piece toilets is an art form that most plumbers are not willing to take on. The bowl spud and spud gasket are the biggest problem. There are different size spuds and holes. The tank part isn't as bad. The 2" flush ell is easily available. Crest-Good in Soyosset, NY has all that stuff. Most flush ells can be 6" X 8" or longer to fit all applications. You will need to keep your eyes open for a tank.

acl10

The hole was from somthing else.

The hole was from somthing else. Even if I get a plumber I want to know my options first so I can make an informed decision. Which size tank would work for this toilet?

acl10

The spud is black plastic

Also the Spud is black oplastic so it cant be that old or it would be metal. The hole in the spud in which the pipe fits is one inch.

Steamhead

Uhhhh, guys

This installation is not Rube-Goldberged, rigged up or anything like that. We often see these washdown bowls fitted with flushometers in upscale older houses. They used the same bowls that were also used with tanks, but with a reducing spud to accommodate the flushometer pipe and an elbow to go from vertical to horizontal.



Those of us who took the Eastern State Penitentiary tour a couple years ago would remember this type of bowl used with with a flushometer. The difference was that the flushometers were located outside the cells.



That particular Gerber bowl is probably not as old as the house- I'd say it was a replacement for one that cracked.



A flushometer installation would use a larger riser from the basement to provide the needed flow. If this riser is old galvanized pipe, it's probably choked up and needs replacement. This would explain the flow issues.



If that were my house, I'd get a 1.6 replacement flushometer-type bowl.

acl10

Which toilet would be a good replacement.

Which toilet would be a good replacement. There is not enough pressure on the 2nd floor for a flushometer

Steamhead

Is there enough flow

to run the cold water faucet? What happens when the faucet is running, and you flush the toilet? 

acl10

The flush gets weaker

The flush gets weaker

acl10

Steamhead

The problem with the current flushometer which is a 3.5 is that it doesnt emty the bowl and some toilet paper remains. Even when I take out the insides and close it the water pressure is not powerfull enough to emty the bowl I was wondering if the piston type increases the pressure a bit

Steamhead

I don't think it does

maybe the jet that shoots water into the outlet opening is partially or fully plugged? 

acl10

I unclogged all of them

I unclogged all of them

icesailor

Diaphragms:

If you DO have a 3.5 GPF flushometer, and the toilet was always there, it must have flushed properly at one time. whether the piping leading to the second floor may be restricted. But usually, like Steamhead said, they were used in high end houses. If you have what once was a high end house, it may have been in fact, a flushometer driven toilet. If you check the Sloan website, you find this:

 http://www.sloanvalve.com/Maintenance_Guides/Royal_Flushometer.pdf

Look at the top three, all water closets, not urinals. See that they only list a 3.5 GPF r4pair kit. But below, see "Note". They list an "A1102A" repair kit and an "A1038A" repair kit. The note says that both will work on the 4.5 GPH toilets. You need to special order the A1102A but if you have a true 3.5 GPF, you have an A1038A. When you take the top off of the valve, and pull the plastic cap off the flush mechanism, you will see a plastic ring under the diaphragm that is loose. It may be black. It says on the chart. But the note says to remove it. It governs the flow through the valve. If there is enough pressure, it should flush.

I would contact Sloan and ask the factory what they recommend for this. If, again, it was a flushometer type, Sloan provided a valve for it.

That looks like a very old tile floor. The toilet is bolted to a cast iron flange. If someone gives you grief about replacing it, respond by asking them where you can get a 17" rough toilet bowl for a flushometer.

It looks like a 2" spud reduced to 1 1/4" tube. The original wasn't plastic. It was brass. There were stops to keep the tube from inserting too far. If the tube is in too far, the flow may be restricted. It may need to be checked..

Steamhead wrote about the pressure. If you have the cold water running full force in the sink, and you flush the valve, does the water in the sink completely stop or just slow down? If it only slows down, it may not be that restricted.

Last, did you take up the toilet? If you did, did you replace the wax seal? Did you use one with the plastic ring that is supposed to extend the horn into the waste? If you did or have one, TAKE THE GD THING OFF!!!!. It may and will restrict the flow in some cases like yours. Use two regular waxes,

Good Luck. 

acl10

I Took of the toilet and you were right there was a plastic

I took off the toilet its a Gerber W75 made in 1984. I had to saw off the screws. You were right there was a plastic attached to the wax. Also the plate under that was holding the screws is all rusty as you can see in the picture. The bolts came out but it wont come off. Should I pry it out. Under the Toilet there was a base made of plaster of paris. Please guide me in reinstalling it. What type of wax do I need to get? Should I try to pry the rusty plate off? Should I use plaster of paris for a new base. Thank You for your help. Anyone that wishes to pitch in advice is welcoem.

acl10

The flange seems to be in ok and I cleaned it out

The flange seems to be in ok and I cleaned it out. It looks lie I can reinsert screws in it. The flange mesures 7 1/2 inches

acl10

If I take the plastic off the wax will it leak between the wax and the floor

If I take the plastic off the wax will it leak between the wax and the floor?

Whats the best way to reinstall the toilet

acl10

If I take the plastic off the wax will it leak between the wax and the floor

If I take the plastic off the wax will it leak between the wax and the floor?

Whats the best way to reinstall the toilet

acl10

If I take the plastic off the wax will it leak between the wax and the floor

If I take the plastic off the wax will it leak between the wax and the floor?

Whats the best way to reinstall the toilet

Steamhead

What I usually do with those plastic gasket sleeves

is to cut off the reduced portion with a pocket knife. That way I get full flow thru it, but there is still some support so the wax won't collapse inward.



Don't worry about the rust on the flange in the floor. It's cast-iron, so that's normal, and it better not be so loose you can pry it off!

icesailor

Setting Toilets:

Is that water in the bottom of the waste pipe? Does the floor sag? Is the waste pitching the wrong way?

The seal was leaking. Did you clean off the bottom of the bowl? It should be black like the old wax seal.

Without the seals on the bowl, set it in place. Does it sit flat on the floor or does it "rock"? If it does, it will need to be shimmed with a shingle and grouted underneath when you set it later. Take the toilet bowl, hold it up and shake it. Is there anything inside? Hold it upside down. There may be something caught in the trapway. I've taken a lot of unusual things out of toilets. The most unusual is a screen that one uses to strain urine to see if there are stones in the urine. It was dropped into a wall hung public toilet and flushed. I once took a bowl that stopped flushing, took it outside and put it on saw horses upside down. I put a hose and ran water through it. I looked in both ends. I used a mirror. I saw nothing. I stuck my fingers in and was feeling around when I cut my finger. There was a broken clear glass perfume bottle stuck in there. It would flush if plunger. You could get a toilet auger through it. It would flush with clear water. A wad of TP and it wouldn't flush.The sink top is only a few inches away from something dropping off and into the toilet. If there is soil in it, no one will stick their hand in it. Flush it away. Out of sight, out of mind.

Run a toilet auger from the bottom to push out anything.

Those two extra holes in the bowl need closet screws in them to stabilize the bowl after it is set.

Take one regular seal and put it flat side out/down so that the tapered part is in the horn. Center it and take your finger and spread it over and against the horn. So it is sealed. Put the other wax, flat sides together. Set the toilet.

It probably has something in it. Try to find out if it does and get it out.

Contact Gerber with the numbers of that toilet bowl and find out what it was for when it was made. It still may be what I suggested in the beginning, that it was a bowl for a 2 piece, flush ell toilet.

If there was a time when the toilet flushed properly, it has something caught in it.

I have found, that the plastic horns can restrict the flow on poor performing toilets. When they are removed, they often improve.

acl10

Now that you see the bottom would a new Gerber fit?

I will probably first try to put back the old toilet. The toilet had nothing in it. The dain is not clogged. Maybe the plastic was obstructing it. I will try a new one or two. I am goinf to use plaster to base it. Now that you see the bottom would a new Gerber fit?

Steamhead

It's a standard flange

so a current model would fit. 

icesailor

Fitting toilet:

What I've tried to tell you is that Gerber doesn't make a toilet like that anymore. It is because they can only manufacture legal 1.6 GPF or less toilets. They and all manufacturers of toilets, had to redesign bowls to flush at 1.6.GPF. That's why you can't find 14: rough bowls. It was cheaper to take a standard tank and make it fatter with a 2" piece in the back.

Without looking back, I think that the bowl he has will fit a 17" rough in. The outlet is too far away from the wall for a normal bowl. Take the rough in measurements of the bowl, and take the measurement from the center of the closet bolts and the front of the bowl. Measure that out/forward. That's how far the bowl will stick out into the room. You will be able to walk behind the toilet with a new bowl.

If you want to make it right with an option, Toto has a few models that have an adjustable outlet that will go to 18" from the wall.  

acl10

Which way should the toilet be pitched

Which way should the toilet be pitched for best reults toward the front or the back?

acl10

Which way should the toilet be pitched

Which way should the toilet be pitchedWhich way should the toilet be pitched for best reults toward the front or the back?

icesailor

Pitch:

Toilets don't get "pitched" They sit on the floor.

Lets start at the beginning.

When you bought the house, did the toilet work?

How well did it work?

When did it stop working?

Did changing the flush valve make it better, the same or worse?

That bowl was made almost 30 years ago and has been in place for 25 years. It must have worked when it was installed.

Are you sure that nothing fell in it and isn't stuck in it?

There's standing water in the 4" pipe under the floor. Does the floor pitch away and is it out of level?

Take a small mirror and a strong flashlight. Put the mirror in the pipe and shine the light on the mirror so It shines down the pipe. Orient it so you can look down the pipe with the mirror and see what you can see. Does the standing water get wider? If it does, the pipe is pitching back to the flange.

I've seen where leaking closet flanges/bowl waxes break a vacuum seal and cause slow flushing. And the plastic horn on that bowl wax gets restricted and they improve when removed.

Make sure that there isn't anything in the bowl trap-way

acl10

It improved a bit

It improved a bit after I changed the wax and cut out the plastic

acl10

Solid waste flushes

Solid waste flushes. The Problem is that toilet paper flots and doest always go dow. There are no blockages. I checked no standing water.

icesailor

Solid Flushes:

If it flushed when you bought the house, and it flushed in the near past, and it stopped taking solid flushes, there's something in it. Like a toothbrush or a comb.

There's a photo of the sink next to the toilet. There's stuff on the counter. Any of those things could fall into the bowl and get flushed. Especially toothbrushes.

Are you absolutely, proof positive that there isn't something in the bowl? Put the bowl, upside down on some towels, and run a quality toilet auger through the bottom. See what comes out. You can buy small inspection mirrors. Look inside from both directions.

Did you get the proper flush assembly?

Is the chrome tube ell inserted into the bowl too far? If it is in too far, the flow may be restricted.

acl10

It did not flush well when I bought the house

It did not flush well when I bought the house. When I took the toilet off to change the wax I cleaned it out inside, There was nothing there. This probnlem was the same for a long time.