Venting Third Floor Riser

crash2009

Todays little project was to improve the delivery of steam to the third floor.  I guess this rad would be called my last rad.  Three floors up and on the opposite side of the house from the boiler.  3-A is a fairly large room, about 5 or 6 hundred sq ft, vaulted ceiling, too many windows, etc.  The 40 EDR radiator was all ready vented with a Gorton D.  I added another Gorton D to the runout.  Hopefully I didn't break too many rules by tapping the runout where I did.  If so, I could go get a ladder and go into the room below and tap the riser, at the ceiling.  I was a little concerned about metal filings getting into the valve, so we opened it up and cleaned the pipe with the shop vac. 



While we were at it the vent end of the radiator was jacked up a bit, and the runout lifted a bit.



Should this type of shutoff valve be used for steam?  It looked like whatever it was made of (black plastic or rubber) was starting to disintegrate.  Wonder if thats the oily crap that ends up in the boiler all the time.

Mark N

Last Rad

Hopefully it will help get steam to this rad before the heat turns off. Is this the only rad in the room? Even if this rad fully heats still might not be enough to warm this room. Good luck

Long Beach Ed

I second Mark on that...

...as I'm looking at that magnificent room and the size of that radiator, I'm saying, "Maybe it doesn't get too cold where they are..."  



Your venting is fine. Should really help with distribution.  And that valve's condition is typical for a valve that's older than dirt.  It's a typical steam valve.  Probably better keeping it than replacing it with the import junk sold today...



You're doing real well if you get enough steam up there fast enough for that TRV to be needed.

nicholas bonham-carter

trv capacity

at some point, you must have experienced overheating with this radiator, and therefore put on the trv. later on it seems that you were needing some more venting, because of under-heating. i wonder if the danfoss trv is restrictive enough to make the gorton d under perform. i have had good results with single gorton d's on our 3rd floor radiators, but of course without trv's.--nbc

Dave in QCA

Let us know how it turns out!

Crash, I vented some second floor risers in a cold area of the house last year in the same manner that you have.  However, after putting orifices in this fall, I took them all out, since they were not needed anymore and the sounds on the varivalves that I use were annoying.



Also, this summer, we insulated the ceilings, slanted ones and all up on the 3rd floor.  I cannot believe the amount of difference it has made.  The space went from chilly to over heated... and the old party room, 720sq ft and 11 foot ceilings was brought into the living space, added an 88 sq ft radiator and a 65 sq ft.... have turned the 65 off completely and its still on the warm side.  So, if your attic space is well insulated, you may be ok, hopefully!



Good luck with it.

crash2009

Add another 40?

Sorry for the miss-leading photo. The DANFOSS TRV HAS BEEN REMOVED and repaced with an angled Gorton D.  Under radiated room huh?  Oversized boiler.  I have about 100 to spare in the boiler.  Can the riser and the main handle whatever I might need in the room?  I think the radiator valve is connected to 1 and 1/4", then it goes about 25 feet down to the main.  The main is 2", about 75' long, and has about 235 EDR connected to it.



 



 

crash2009

Hey Dave

Can you get that old party room up to 120 F?  Might make a good Yoga Studio $$$.

Dave in QCA

The tables say...

From Greening Steam, pgs. 108-109, the table indicate that you have plenty of capacity to add 40 sq ft of additional radiation, or more, if it turns out that you need it.

Dave in QCA

Hmmmmmm

That's one trial that I probably won't run.  heh heh heh

Mark N

Heat loss

Crash



Do a heat loss on the room. See what you come up with. By my math a 40 sqft rad can put 9600 btu/hour. I would think a room that size would need 100 to 125 sqft of rads. What is the temp of the room on a cold night.

crash2009

Mark

I have never done a heat loss on that room.  Never knew one needed to be done til now.  I did do some ballpark measurements for the air conditioner last summer.  Based on those measurements, I purchased a 12,000 btu A/C.  Any way to cross calculate that into heating needed for winter?  If we had to improve the temp without doing any work, I think I could mix the air better with the fan of the A/C.  That fan can move some air.

If I had to ballpark the heat I would say that it is about 60% heated with the 40 EDR radiator.  The glass in the upper 60% of the room look normal.  The glass in the bottom 1/3 of the room are condensated.  I think you guys are right the 40 is just not enough.  And I just thought about something, there is more volume in the bottom 40% than there is in the top 60% (due to the peak of the roof)



Yesterday I did do some poking around.  There is some fiberglass in the kneewall and slope wall, and about a foot of cellulose fiber in the attic. 

Mark N

How much heat?

Crash



What is the temp of the room when your maintaining say 70 in the rest of the house? There are calculators out there on the web that you can use to enter the parameters of the room to get a rough idea of how many btus that room needs. That room is huge, 4 exterior walls, attic above, lots of windows, and a high ceiling it will need more heat than what a 40 sqft rad can provide. Check out Ch. 7 in the LAOSH, a 1 1/4 riser can handle 98sqft of steam, but a 1 1/4 run out and 1 1/4 hand valve can only handle 55sqft.

crash2009

Yea, I hear ya

40's not enough for that room.  Runout's no good.  I found one of those online calculators you spoke of.  I did a rough (not a lot of thought or measuring) heat loss for 3-A.  Not sure if you can see the pic very well.  Ctrl Print screen is not the best tool in this resolution.  Based upon my rough heatloss estimate and your estimated radiator output, I would need 14,000 btu's to heat that space to 68 F.  If the 40 is puttin out 9600 and I mixed the air, the best I could hope for in that room is 48 F. 

Not my preferred temp but the tenant seems to prefer that.  My only complaint is the condensation building up on the windows, the inevitable dripping on to my paint, wood, drywall, and carpet, and possibly a mold problem down the road.

crash2009

Add a Rad

I'd rather not mess with the 40 in 3-A anyway.  Maybe I can kill two birds with one stone.  There is a connected but not turned on, EDR 25 in the bathroom.  The bathroom is heated by the 3-B, 1" runout, running around the perimiter.  Why not just move the 25 into 3-A, punch a hole through the wall, then down through the stairs, connect with the 1 and 1/4" under the stair (Riser ?  Riser B is the first riser from the boiler and is hot as hell.  I have had 3-B and 3-Bath running at the same time with no adverse effects.   



The under the stairs photo is 1 and 1/4 from the basement.  The runout to the left goes to a small convector in the 2nd floor bath, and just after the 45 that is the riser to 3-B and 3-Bath.  Currently 3-Bath is piggybacked on the 3-B runout. 

Whats the best way to throw all this together?

Pictures to follow, give me about 5 minutes.