Orifice plates

Enreynolds

I am having a hard time finding a supplier of orifice plates.  Can anyone point me to a supplier?

Rod

Radiator Orifices

Hi -  Contact Tunstall http://www.tunstall-inc.com/tunstall-steam/inlet-orifice/

- Rod

gerry gill

i make my own,

generally out of sheet lead, but often out of a pepsi can.

Enreynolds

Thanks

Rod, I have a call into Tunstall, and my local supplier.  I have about 90 radiators to orifice.  Gerry, the lead sheet idea is intriguing, but the 90 cans of soda may be too much :-) I suppose I could make up some sort of punch to make them out of lead.  Always great advice.

Rod

Radiator Orifices

Here's an article on orifices which might be of help to you. Also ask Tunstall for what information they have on orifices.

- Rod

Dave in QCA

Tunstall's sizing table

Tunstall has a sizing table that is more finely graduated than the one in Gifford's article.  They also can size the orifice for whatever pressure you want to run, 8 oz, 16 oz, 2 psi.

I completed the installation of orifices in my system earlier in the fall.  I have 32 radiators, and the results are fantastic.  It has truly improved distribution and performance.  At the same time, it has made it glaringly apparent, just how oversized my boiler is.



In case you're interested... here is a link to a very long and continuing thread on my system in Davenport, IA.  You have to scroll down a long way to get to the current orifice project.   http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/131216/The-Best-Heating-System   

Enreynolds

My saga

Dave, thanks for the additional info.  I am waiting for a call back from Tunstall to get the sizing table.  I have been following your project, which is one reason I am looking at orifices.  I am trying to balance a 22 unit apartment building containing about 90 radiators.  I started this project before I found Dan and HeatingHelp, and learned a lot of things (many the hard way) on my own because, like many areas of the country, there are few real steam men.  One of these days I will have to document my ongoing saga of fixing the knuckleheading.  Thanks again.

Enreynolds

Bad News, Good news

Well, I heard back from Tunstall.  Unfortunately, they are holding their orifice sizing charts as proprietary information, and will provide orifices sized to your radiators from a list that you send them.  This is probably great for most people, but I am a more "hands on" type.  Soooo, I did some research, since I knew there had to be some mathematics related to steam flow through an orifice, and I came upon Napiers formula and its variants.  Using this formula, I created a spreadsheet depicting the orifice sizes needed for radiators with EDR from 1 to 200 for pressures from 2 to 32 oz. in 2 oz. increments.  In comparing them with Henry Gifford's chart, I found that my sizes were about 5% off. On the first worksheet you will find an EDR percentage value, defaulted to 105%, which allows you to set the percentage of the radiator you want to fill.  Less than 100% gives you a condensation rate such that no steam should ever exit the radiator.  Please note that this chart is purely mathematically derived, and has no real world testing.  That being said, it should at least give a good stepping off point.  Enjoy.



Sorry, could not attach Excel File, attaching pdf.  Contact me if you need the worksheet

Dave in QCA

My experience with Tunstall

I found them very easy to work with although, they understandably want to hang on to their proprietary information.  I cannot blame them.



As I was putting my order together, they were able to provide me with a pdf chart that had EDR and pressure drop across the orifice tabulated with an orifice letter designator.  The orifice openings are sized A-X.   When I was ready to place my order, I ordered based on the letter sizing.  I also order several blanks.  When the orifices arrived, they were marked with decimal drill or punch sizes.  Those did not correspond to information that I had, and I did not have anyway to cross reference.  They then sent me the full table, which included both the letter designation and the decimal drill size.   That was all that I needed, and out of consideration of their business, I feel compelled that I should not share it.



By the way, my orifices were sized for operating at 8 oz.  I have made a spot check to the table you have developed.  I have checked at 2 points, and for the 8 oz pressure, your EDR numbers are off by a factor of 100%



I would suggest that you visit again with Woody Tunstall and ask him if they can provide you with the EDR chart that has orifice size as letter designation.  Then, if they will also provide you wiht a dimensional chart when you place the order, since some field adjustments may be necessary.  I would also suggest that you order a few blanks, and of course you will need the chart to do any drilling of the blanks.

Enreynolds

Wow

we got our orifice sizing formula corrected with some much appreciated help from a great wally. We sized our orifices for 6 oz., as our boiler is well matched to our EDR. I had one of our handymen punch out a bunch of 1-3/16 slugs out of some 4 lb lead (thanks Gerry) using a punch that I made by grinding the teeth off a 1-1/4 hole saw and sharpening the outside. We used our 1 ton arbor press to drive the punch. Next we domed the slugs using a 1" PVC end cap and rubber ball, again in the press. Finally we drilled them according to our chart.

We started installing at about 3 pm, the outdoor temp, according to our Tekmar 279, was 42, and we were running 32% cycles. We finished installing 65 of the 91 orifices at 9:10 pm. The 279 had us at 36, and running 8% cycles. I do not know if this is a true reduction in gas usage; time will tell, but is sure exciting. Equally exciting is the truly remarkable difference we are seeing in the balance in the building! Apartments that never were warm before were opening windows (which slowed us down a bit as we gave lessons on how to actually use the TRV's for temperature control, rather than just maxed at 6). We are now punching out the orifice slugs for the remaining 1/2" TRV's and plan on installing them tomorrow. Will post results once done. Thanks to all for the great suggestions and support.

gerry gill

this is a very interesting project,

please keep us posted on how well it heats and the run times etc. I'd also love to see your corrected chart.

Enreynolds

Chart

Gerry, I need to get permission to share the corrected chart with you, due to the help I got on it. I will try to post some pics of my orifice fabrication setup later today, if I can fit it in. Will keep you posted.

Enreynolds

Looking good

 Our set up has proved to be very worthwhile. After installing about 65 of the 91 orifices, we have basically balanced the building. The remaining orifices have to be repunched and drilled, since I had a senior moment and forgot that the kitchen and bath radiators are carrying 1/2 inch valves, and I punched everything for 3/4 valves. Luckily(?), we have another building to do, which we ended up auditing today rather than installing the rest of the orifices in the first building. I am going to be posting some pictures of my fabrication setup because my handyman was amazed at how I did the doming of the slugs.

We have yet to drop down to low fire on our new Hi/Lo setup, as we are running at a max of 1-1/2 to 2 oz. Venting is at imperceptible pressure. Whoever sized our boiler was right on.  Still promising pictures to come.

Enreynolds

All righty then

I have recieved numerous requests for my corrected orifice chart. I will be posting a copy in pdf format in the near future, along with an explanation of how I derived the data. My day job interferes with my ability to post more now.

Enreynolds

Some pictures of orifice fabrication

Here are some pictures of how we fabricated orifice plates for our radiator using 4# lead sheet (1/16").

Enreynolds

Pictures second try

Trying again

crash2009

Pictures

Login, then go to the thread you want the pics to appear in, then click edit and add as many as you want.  I think I did 9 or 12 at once before.

Enreynolds

Crash

I have tried at least ten times. I give up.

Enreynolds

Finally

Got the pictures up

gerry gill

love the pictures!

well done on making the orifices!

Enreynolds

More orifices

installed today. Finished our 16 unit apartment building today. 54 radiators. I am whipped. Working on the chart tonight.

Dave in QCA

Great Job!

Great job on a large sized building!

Just wondering if you noticed any more pressure build after putting in the last 16 orifices.  If not, your boiler is sized very well.  If you do see a bit more pressure, of course you have the hi-fire/lo-fire set up to provide perfect control.

Enreynolds

Background

Dave, thanks for the support. In order to bring others up to date, Dave and I have conversed privately, and he is refering to a part of that interaction.



We have a couple of apartment buildings with two pipe steam. The first is a 22 unit building sporting a 2003 HB Smith 19A 7 section with max input of 675000 btu/hr (important later) and an on/off Powerflame JR30A-12. This is connected to 1982 sq ft EDR. We have been working with an energy consulting firm to remain nameless out of Buffalo NY to reduce energy consumption. They apparently do NOT know steam, based on some of their suggestions and ommissions. First, venting of the system was completely ignored; The entiire 30 cf of main and all radiators/runouts were venting through 4 Warren Webster 712 crossover traps that finally vented in the boiler room through a single Hoffman 75 on the Webster return trap. We replaced the crossover traps with 4 antlers of 4 Gorton #2s each. Eventually. But before this, we were advised to replace all the (orifice) radiator valves with TRVs, no orifices. Needless to say, we still had balance problems. The boiler was also short cycling 3 or more times per cycle, with a pre-purge on each restart of the power burner. We decided to convert the Powerflame to hi/lo firing, (who our friends at Buckpitt performed admirably), which was completed on Dec. 23rd. Before starting we clocked the meter,and found, you have been waiting for it, the burner was set at 924000 btu/hr! This MIGHT have been the cause of the short cycling, and probably gave us wet steam due to the increased exit velocity. We still have it overfired at 754000 btu/hr on high fire, but drop down to 462000 btu/ hr on low. As part of this conversion project we also began installation of orifice plates in the TRVs to provide balance to the system. I mistakenly created all the orifice plates for 3/4 valves, and thus we were only able to install 65 of the 96 plates. The remaining radiators are the smallest in the building but still need to be done to completely balance the building, but the results have been amazing.



Dave was refering to my complaint that we were not building our required 6 oz of pressure to kick down from hi to lo fire. This has been corrected. It seems to be a combination of mild weather/short burn times and the insensitivity of the micro-switch vaporstat. A few surgical applications of liquid wrench to the pivot points of the control helped a lot to get the kick down to work on break, but no setting of the differential will institute a lo to hi switch. We have a Hg vaporstat on a atmospheric boiler at another building that I am seriously considering switching, in order to gain better control of the system.



The most recent orifice installation in our second steam building has been a roaring success. This building was much the same, with someone in the past replacing the original radiator valves with TRVS, no orifices. Cold apartments are now warm, and the heat is much more even, at least anecdotally. I will update as new developments bring themselves to light.

Enreynolds

Background

Dave, thanks for the support. In order to bring others up to date, Dave and I have conversed privately, and he is refering to a part of that interaction.



We have a couple of apartment buildings with two pipe steam. The first is a 22 unit building sporting a 2003 HB Smith 19A 7 section with max input of 675000 btu/hr (important later) and an on/off Powerflame JR30A-12. This is connected to 1982 sq ft EDR. We have been working with an energy consulting firm to remain nameless out of Buffalo NY to reduce energy consumption. They apparently do NOT know steam, based on some of their suggestions and ommissions. First, venting of the system was completely ignored; The entiire 30 cf of main and all radiators/runouts were venting through 4 Warren Webster 712 crossover traps that finally vented in the boiler room through a single Hoffman 75 on the Webster return trap. We replaced the crossover traps with 4 antlers of 4 Gorton #2s each. Eventually. But before this, we were advised to replace all the (orifice) radiator valves with TRVs, no orifices. Needless to say, we still had balance problems. The boiler was also short cycling 3 or more times per cycle, with a pre-purge on each restart of the power burner. We decided to convert the Powerflame to hi/lo firing, (who our friends at Buckpitt performed admirably), which was completed on Dec. 23rd. Before starting we clocked the meter,and found, you have been waiting for it, the burner was set at 924000 btu/hr! This MIGHT have been the cause of the short cycling, and probably gave us wet steam due to the increased exit velocity. We still have it overfired at 754000 btu/hr on high fire, but drop down to 462000 btu/ hr on low. As part of this conversion project we also began installation of orifice plates in the TRVs to provide balance to the system. I mistakenly created all the orifice plates for 3/4 valves, and thus we were only able to install 65 of the 96 plates. The remaining radiators are the smallest in the building but still need to be done to completely balance the building, but the results have been amazing.



Dave was refering to my complaint that we were not building our required 6 oz of pressure to kick down from hi to lo fire. This has been corrected. It seems to be a combination of mild weather/short burn times and the insensitivity of the micro-switch vaporstat. A few surgical applications of liquid wrench to the pivot points of the control helped a lot to get the kick down to work on break, but no setting of the differential will institute a lo to hi switch. We have a Hg vaporstat on a atmospheric boiler at another building that I am seriously considering switching, in order to gain better control of the system.



The most recent orifice installation in our second steam building has been a roaring success. This building was much the same, with someone in the past replacing the original radiator valves with TRVS, no orifices. Cold apartments are now warm, and the heat is much more even, at least anecdotally. I will update as new developments bring themselves to light.

Enreynolds

Background

Dave, thanks for the support. In order to bring others up to date, Dave and I have conversed privately, and he is refering to a part of that interaction.



We have a couple of apartment buildings with two pipe steam. The first is a 22 unit building sporting a 2003 HB Smith 19A 7 section with max input of 675000 btu/hr (important later) and an on/off Powerflame JR30A-12. This is connected to 1982 sq ft EDR. We have been working with an energy consulting firm to remain nameless out of Buffalo NY to reduce energy consumption. They apparently do NOT know steam, based on some of their suggestions and ommissions. First, venting of the system was completely ignored; The entiire 30 cf of main and all radiators/runouts were venting through 4 Warren Webster 712 crossover traps that finally vented in the boiler room through a single Hoffman 75 on the Webster return trap. We replaced the crossover traps with 4 antlers of 4 Gorton #2s each. Eventually. But before this, we were advised to replace all the (orifice) radiator valves with TRVs, no orifices. Needless to say, we still had balance problems. The boiler was also short cycling 3 or more times per cycle, with a pre-purge on each restart of the power burner. We decided to convert the Powerflame to hi/lo firing, (who our friends at Buckpitt performed admirably), which was completed on Dec. 23rd. Before starting we clocked the meter,and found, you have been waiting for it, the burner was set at 924000 btu/hr! This MIGHT have been the cause of the short cycling, and probably gave us wet steam due to the increased exit velocity. We still have it overfired at 754000 btu/hr on high fire, but drop down to 462000 btu/ hr on low. As part of this conversion project we also began installation of orifice plates in the TRVs to provide balance to the system. I mistakenly created all the orifice plates for 3/4 valves, and thus we were only able to install 65 of the 96 plates. The remaining radiators are the smallest in the building but still need to be done to completely balance the building, but the results have been amazing.



Dave was refering to my complaint that we were not building our required 6 oz of pressure to kick down from hi to lo fire. This has been corrected. It seems to be a combination of mild weather/short burn times and the insensitivity of the micro-switch vaporstat. A few surgical applications of liquid wrench to the pivot points of the control helped a lot to get the kick down to work on break, but no setting of the differential will institute a lo to hi switch. We have a Hg vaporstat on a atmospheric boiler at another building that I am seriously considering switching, in order to gain better control of the system.



The most recent orifice installation in our second steam building has been a roaring success. This building was much the same, with someone in the past replacing the original radiator valves with TRVS, no orifices. Cold apartments are now warm, and the heat is much more even, at least anecdotally. I will update as new developments bring themselves to light.