Aunt's New Boiler ...

jpf321

Here's some before and after pics (although I'm back there tomorrow for some loose ends) .. of a boiler install that I worked on for my Aunt.



A BIG THANKS to Steamhead for his input in directing me towards the Peerless 63. The original reco to my aunt was a Slant Fin Intrepid with a Carlin burner, but after my aunt experienced my Reillo oil gun, she opted of a much quieter (very important to her) atmospheric.



A BIG THANKS to Chris and his crew for their expert install.



A BIG THANKS to Karen at simplyplumbing for bearing with me during the decision process and being there when I needed her.



It's a Peerless Packaged 63-03 (packaged with a 404A Pressuretrol, CG-450-1560 Probe Type LWCO, Spark Ignition) .. <a href="http://www.simplyplumbing.com/">www.simplyplumbing.com</a>



Extra Additions by me include:

Vaporstat + VXT-24 Auto-feed (simplyplumbing.com),

0-20oz LowPressure gauge + snubber (<a href="http://www.gaugestore.com/">www.gaugestore.com</a>),

3" Header. (SOLCO Plumbing Supply House)

Proper skim, iso and cleanout valves/ports



I still need to get her a proper venting tree (seen in background is a Gorton #1, which is underventing her main)



<a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/104431127436287547817/AuntSBoiler?authkey=Gv1sRgCMOQ-6aIv5iqZw">https://picasaweb.google.com/104431127436287547817/AuntSBoiler?authkey=Gv1sRgCMOQ-6aIv5iqZw</a> (ALL PICTURES)



<img src="https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-pCUKkNOHuuI/Tq2acUTuF1I/AAAAAAADx20/kRLZnLDm2gU/s512/2011-10-30%25252014.31.44.jpg" width="384" height="512" alt="" />



<img src="https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-3qeKsuHhjOY/TtZSoJbJvvI/AAAAAAADzRQ/SizX2X1Otbg/s512/2011-11-30%25252009.41.57.jpg" width="384" height="512" alt="" />

gerry gill

now thats a man size header.

arr..i like em like that!

lchmb

nice

Job on the install..but curious, why no sediment traps on the boiler and water heater's gas line?

crash2009

JPF

I was wondering where you were hiding. 

Long Beach Ed

Same reason

...that someone's telling him the #1 Gorton's not enough. 

jpf321

traps and venting

The DHW trap .. I cannot comment on .. that was done by a "professional" crew local to the area within the last year.



The boiler dirt leg/trap .. I'm glad someone noticed that .. it was only noticed by me late in the install day as an oversight that I didn't catch as I was on a run for a few fittings, I intend on correcting it tomorrow. As well as wiring it up and cementing the flue pipe.



I would like to see an additional piece or two Gorton #1 on the 75ft 2" Main/Return. Since there are 1.725cf of air to vent in that pipe and the Gorton #1 vents at a rate of ~0.33cfm at 1oz of pressure. According to the work of Gill and Pajek.

jpf321

earlier in the season ...

I *was* hiding on an R&D project for whole house electronic TRVs.



Each rad now has an e-TRVent which senses room ambient and will either close the rad OR OPEN THE RAD AND CALL FOR HEAT. All wireless and centrally controlled at my laptop. Each room is fully programmable 24/7. One-pipe residential systems only right now. After boiler on, they all open for a configurable time for vacuum break.



I can also configure how many "cold" rooms are necessary prior to a call for heat. As well as how many rooms can still be cold when I ask the boiler to shut down. Currently I'm configured at 2 rooms must be cold to call for heat and 0 rooms can be cold to shutdown the call.



All pressure and LWCO controls are entact, these simply replace my central thermostat which is still in-line however, set down below my lowest room setpoint as a safety.



If anyone would like more info on the units/system or a look at the data, please reach me directly.

Mark N

Sounds Complicated

JPF



Electronic TRV's sounds overly complicated to me as a way to control a small steam heat system or are you just bored and having some fun. By the way how did your electrical usage shifting project work out?

jpf321

Electrical usage project

I fared pretty well. Coned sent me a reconciliation check for $189 and reduced my level billing amount from $263/month to $183/month in October. So I had a free month (well prepaid) month and I'm now saving close to 30%/month.

Mark N

Nice

Saving 30% a month is very nice. Is that level billing plan for electric or electric and gas?

jpf321

just E

just electric. My gas is with NationalGrid and we only cook and dry with gas.



FYI, I'm so excited about my cheap electric, I'm now heating non-peak electrical with my LG Mini-Split heat pumps (down to about 0degC where the COP drops off as non-beneficial compared to oil)



But so far from 10/22-12/03 I've burned 86gals @ $3.49/gal including DHW from the tankless. According to degreedays.net .. there's been locally 606.5 HDD (65dF) for that period .. so 84/606.5 = 0.1385gals/HDD ($0.48/HDD)..



Last year I was tracking 0.313gal/HDD .. so I've cut better than 50%!



AND I just got my recent coned bill .. wait for it .. 10/21 - 11/27 =

         278kWhr Peak

         880kWhr Off-Peak

          (   Off peak supply = 5.183cents/kWh and

              On-Peak Supply = 12.2914cents/kWhr ...

             Delivery Off = 3.3977cents/kWh and

             On=12.6871cents/kWh)  ..

   + misc taxes etc  ... == $206 total.

And as I just mentioned I run a (recently reconciled) normal level billing of $183 .. so $206 isn't bad above my normal $ usage.



Perhaps most important of all .. the "Wife is Cold" Factor .. that's WsubC .. has dropped to about 0.

Long Beach Ed

Queens?

If you're in the City of New York, which I think you are, you have several issues that will keep you form passing inspection there. 



The Chinese ball valve on the gas line, the lack of a gas drip and the use of malleable fittings will all draw ire of the inspector.  



Unless, of course the plumber of record has made some accommodation with the inspector, though I've never seen them permit that gas arrangement.



Even if you're not having the job signed off, one day you'll sell the place and the new owner will demand a sign-off, so better you correct at least the gas issues at this point. 

jpf321

the gas is being...

attended to tomorrow. I meant to do it today, but I got caught up on other monday morning errands. i'm not sure that the gas cock is chinese, i'll double check on that.



i'm not sure which fittings you are referring to as malleable and troublesome. the header fittings are cast (steam) as far as I ordered them.



thanks.

Long Beach Ed

Malleable

The header fittings in the photo are malleable regardless of what you ordered.

jpf321

NYC code ...

NYC Fuel Gas Code PDF Located here: http://www.nyc.gov/html/dob/downloads/pdf/fuel_code.pdf



1) regarding the gas cock:

screenshot of NYC code here: http://screencast.com/t/P281t6Do

must comply with ASME B16.33 and/or ANSI Z 21.15

close up pictures of the cock here: https://picasaweb.google.com/104431127436287547817/AuntSBoiler?authkey=Gv1sRgCMOQ-6aIv5iqZw#5682770789119147218

and here: https://picasaweb.google.com/104431127436287547817/AuntSBoiler?authkey=Gv1sRgCMOQ-6aIv5iqZw#5682770534238586610

This cock clearly is stamped as complying with both ASME B16.33 and ANSI Z 21.15



2) sediment traps ..

Yes, code requires them.

Screenshot of code here: http://screencast.com/t/ClUPj6YK

On tomorrow's list.



3) Gas fittings (just general info, I know you didn't point this out...)

Cast Iron Pipe is explicitly Prohibited

Fittings for steel/wrought iton pipe shall be steel or malleable .. Cast Iron fittings are only allowed for flanges .. screenshot here: http://screencast.com/t/rbTRO3bAi35O



4) Header fittings

After reading the NYC plumbing code and finding nothing.

I looked into NYC Building Code 1968 with 2008 amendments (http://www.nyc.gov/html/dob/downloads/bldgs_code/1968BuildingCode_Vol1.zip and http://www.nyc.gov/html/dob/downloads/bldgs_code/1968BuildingCode_Vol2.zip) and found nothing regarding the material of the boiler header .. unless it is somewhere listed in

ANSI/ASME Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code 1986.

Section I Power Boilers

*Section IV Heating Boilers.



However, I then went out to the JP Ward site and looked up the specs for both their 150 Class Malleable and their 125 Class Cast Iron fittings .. (http://wardfittings.com/Assets/PDFs/0902CatalogColorOld.pdf)

       Screenshot for the 150Class fittings here: http://screencast.com/t/kvbMMLSTlgZ They are rated for 225PSIG @ 250dF

     screenshot for the 125 Class C.I. fittings .. http://screencast.com/t/xmY48ekF

They are rated for ONLY 150PSIG at 250dF.



So due to lack of exact NYC code reference likely because this is considered HVAC piping, and the fact that the malleable are better quality higher rated equipment, I have no problem having the malleable fittings installed over the cast .. the only difference being that the next mechanic will have a harder, though not impossible time, cracking the malleable fitting vs. the C.I.

Long Beach Ed

Also...

...you will have a harder, probably impossible time,.. convincing the broken-English- speaking plumbing inspector in the City of New York that he doesn't know what he's talking about!



The problem with those valves is that we've never seen one hold against pressure when doing the required mercury (air) test of the building's existing gas piping.  They tend to slowly leak through the pipe.  If you have trouble with that during the inspection, offer to remove the valve and cap the pipe at the appliance.  Every inspection we've tried with anything but an Apollo valve has taken one look at the imported one and said "no good".  Challenging him on that and on cast fittings would cost you a lot more money than the entire job. 



You really don't want to learn that the hard way...  but don't say I didn't try to warn ya!

Long Beach Ed

Spoke

Spoke with the inspector in the Kew Gardens area today.  



"Absolutely not" was his reply to Chinese valves and an abundance of malleable fittings.  None of the local plumbers would even attempt that, he said.



Unless of course it's a homeowners' job which wouldn't be legal in NYC anyway.

jpf321

updated pic

Below is an updated picture...



1) Added the 2 sediment traps on both the DHW heater and the boiler.



2) Changed the GBV to be an AY McDonald 10687G (datasheet: http://www.aymcdonald.com/en-US/Component.Display.html?RefId=f9d279bb-5dcc-470e-aea1-60b6d20f2673 "manufactured to guildines set forth in B16.33" Made in USA)



Apparently this C.I. vs Mal. debate is over 5yrs old ..

http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/104003/Cast-iron-fittings-vs-Malleable-fittings

http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/88791/Cast-Iron-v-s-Black-Malleable-on-steam-systems

http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/138563/Cast-Iron-Fittings

http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/124620/steam-pipe-fittings



In the links above, I noticed that several people refer to use of Mal. fittings as a violation of NYC Code, however, no one provides a code reference to base this violation on. I have just spent some time, again, combing through the NYC Building, Construction, Mechanical, Fuel Gas and Plumbing Code (http://publicecodes.citation.com/st/ny/ci-nyc/YC-P-2008-000006.htm) and, I have concluded that if C.I. is required and Mal is prohibited,  it must be located in a document that I do not have ready access to: ASME BPVC Section IV.



NYC Mecanical Code Chapter 10, Section 1004.1

(http://www2.iccsafe.org/states/newyorkcity/Mechanical/PDFs/Chapter%2010_Boilers%20Water%20Heaters%20and%20Pressure%20Vessels.pdf)

Set's forth the standards which dictate the design and construction of

boilers in NYC .. they include: ASME CSD-1 and as applicable: ASME BPVC

Sections I, II, IV, V, VI, VIII, and IX; 12 NYCRR Parts 4 and 14; NFPA

8501, 8501 and 8504.



In going back to some source material .. I think the answer of C.I. vs Mal is best illustrated in the following table (excerpted from "Steam Power Plant Engineering" - Gebhardt - 1915 pg. 691)



Additionally, on page 678 he has this to say about materials for fittings:



LIkewise, in "Steam Boilers" by Peabody and Miller - 1897 he shares these thoughts on C.I. and Malleable ..









Additionally, before we had NPT/IPS .. we had meetings on the topic of pipe threads and standards .. way back in Dec of 1886 the ASME had their 7th Annual meeting, one of the topics being, the standardization of Standard Pipe and Pipe Threads ... that's all interesting enough, however, it is notable that there was an entire Association of Cast Iron Fittings. Members of that Association included: R.T. Crane, Pres. of Crane Bros. Manufacturing, Chicago and  E.G. Brunham, VP The Eaton, Cole and Burnham Co., Bridgeport CT. It would seem that the Cast Iron folks had a strong lobbying force and that these fittings represented strong business interests. Perhaps, it may turn out that Cast Iron was cheapest to make in this Ayn Rand-ian,  steel is the old iPod, turn of the century industrialization period. But it was also heavy and brittle. Maybe someone in ASME (the same guys that make the standards for everyone) decided that the Cast Iron Fitting Association lobby, needed to get some steady orders and either due to political or monetary motivation, decided that Low Pressure Steam Boilers shall forever be made with C.I. fittings .. that and they hadn't invented the Sawzall / 4" Grinder yet.

Long Beach Ed

Nice

Can't get much better than that!   Got 15" from the steam supply to the equalizer?



Your job is better than 99% of the ones we see!

Dave in QCA

How Noisy is it?

JP, it is good to see you back after a long absence!   The install looks great, as would be expected. 

I have been going to contact you to ask just how noisy your Riello burner is.  I understand that there is some sound attenuation in the cover.  I have been trying to weigh all factors in selecting my future boiler which I hope to install in the summer of 2013.  I burn gas and the advantages of a wet base power burner are understood.  Sound level is a factor too.  I have a friend that installed a Burnham steel tube boiler with a Powerflame burner a few years back.  That burner is really loud, and I'm not eager to wind up with that situation.



I've wondered how loud your burner is compared to a normal conversation in the same room.  Anyway you might make a video clip of the burner off, then starting, then lighting, all the while there is some ambient sound in the room, such as conversation, a radio., etc.   It would be very helpful!



Oh, and weighing in the cast iron / malleable debate that has ensued in this thread, I come in on the side of cast.  But my reasons are mainly aesthetics based.  Cast is what is used on all of the old piping.      

jpf321

not so bad...

I will give some thought into how best to capture the "sound" .. However, I think that the sound is going to be dependent on a few other factors besides the actual burner ..

1) Combustion chamber geometry & size

2) Barometric damper Placement

3) Combustion/flame tuning

it is certainly less loud than my Rigid vacuum :-) And much less loud than my old Fitzgibbons 405 that had a huge combustion chamber.



The burner itself is relatively quiet. It's the roar of the flame which is louder. That roar emanates most from the Barometric damper. Likewise, the tweaking of the flame has a great deal to do with the sound, think candle sound vs. propane torch. The cover for the burner is a significant benefit though.



In researching boiler for my Aunt, I conversed a bit with Steamhead. This is what I learned from our conversations ..

A Smith-8-4 boiler is quieter than a S/F Intrepid

A midco burner is quieter than a Carlinn EZGas

Smith is only approved with a Carlin

Intrepid is approved for either Midco or Carlin.

We didn't discuss Riello in that the Reillo is only oil. But he commented that the Gas Burners are comparable soundwise, to an oil powerburner.



If you get a Carlin, apparently make sure you get the P/N that includes the cover since there is also a P/N without a cover and adding the "cover kit" is a significant expense compared to getting the unit with cover included. The part number that I have noted for the Intrepid TR-30 is ..

TR-30 EZ-Gas Part Numbers:

WITH COVER: pn# 98-59-212BFR3

WITHOUT COVER: pn# 98-59-210BFR1

If you purchase the cover as a separate part the cover kit is SEVERAL HUNDRED $$ MORE. If you purchase the burner WITH COVER, it's only marginally more over the burner without.

The burners above are UNIVERSAL and the orifice needs to be drilled.

Dave in QCA

Rumble vs. Scream

JP, thanks for all of the information that you have offered on the question of sound.  To clarify, it is not the rumble of the combustion that bothers me as much as the screaming of the blower.

by the way, Riello actual does make gas burners and they are offered on the WM 80 series.  However, I would want the 2-stage burner G-900 model which is only offered on the larger 80 series boilers.  But, the firing rate range for the g-900 is well within the range of a WM-480, so I suspect that with a proper mounting plate, it might be an approved configuration with WM, but that is yet to be determined.



Here is the Riello link.  http://www.riellousa.com/2_products/3_gas-burners/3a_40-series-gas-fired.asp   

jpf321

perhaps this will help ....

Riello with and without sound cover ..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DNLsOjWsTk

jpf321

thanks!

such a note coming from such constructive critic means alot :-) I much appreciate your insight and insistence that I move down the path a bit farther. 

Dave in QCA

excellent !!

This is really an excellent demonstration.



Thanks for finding it!

Dave in QCA

excellent !!

This is really an excellent demonstration.



Thanks for finding it!

jpf321

yep .. I gots da 15"

Not sure where 15" is coming from .. perhaps that's 28" - the header height .. but yes, I have about 36" from steam supply to boiler jacket top .. and I have close to 17" from steam supply to equalizer .. see pics with tape measure in the main album .. (red markings at 12" increments) ..



https://picasaweb.google.com/104431127436287547817/AuntSBoiler?authkey=Gv1sRgCMOQ-6aIv5iqZw