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Piped Wrong?

Tedco
Tedco Member Posts: 7
in THE MAIN WALL
I am not a contractor, just a home owner who has 2 pipe steam heat, and just finished the book "We got steam heat" and on p78 there is a diagram with two risers connecting to the header. Can someone smarter than me look at the picture and tell me if this looks piped wrong? I think it might be, but what do I know?



Thanks in advance,

Comments

  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    More pictures:

    How about a picture of that white pipe coming off the top of the header and what it connects to.

    If the manufacturers installation and maintenance manual are there (it should be), look at the drawings of how the manufacturer wants the near boiler piping. I'll bet that that isn't how they want it.

    Others, sharper than I will respond.
  • ed wallace
    ed wallace Member Posts: 1,613
    piped wrong ?

    yes it is piped wrong will it work maybe it will but its not done right is this a new boiler
  • Tedco
    Tedco Member Posts: 7
    another photo

    Does this help?
  • Mike Kusiak_2
    Mike Kusiak_2 Member Posts: 604
    edited December 2011
    No swing joints

    The header is piped incorrectly. There should be elbows at the end of the risers from the boiler and a horizontal length of pipe before it enters the header. The present setup does not allow for expansion and contraction of the header when heating and cooling, putting stress on the boiler sections.



    Its hard to tell from the photo, but the steam takeoff from the header should be vertical or at least at a 45 to minimize water carryover.



    If you go to the trouble of redoing the near boiler piping, it would probably make sense to go with a drop header configuration. This will reduce mechanical stress on the boiler and also produce drier steam. Also as Ice mentions, it appears that the  riser pipe is reduced in size compared to the overhead main. This may result in increased steam velocity in the riser, resulting in more water being carried into the main, so this could be changed at the same time.



    I am not sure if the changes would result in any significant fuel savings, but it should increase the life of the boiler and result in a better running system.
  • Tedco
    Tedco Member Posts: 7
    sorry, needed to rotate the photo.

    It is a pretty new boiler. However, I just bought the house in August, so I didn't have it done.



    Heat does work, and there is no water hammer, but some of the radiators spit a little bit, and I'm sure its not being fuel efficient if piped wrong.
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Supply piping:

    The header is pointed out as wrong. It also looks like it is a 1 1/4 pipe riser that is connecting into a 2" supply main. I'm not a Steamer but I don't think it is proper steam practice. Maybe you could get away with it in a forced hot water system but that's not what you have. A spitting radiators sounds like wet steam.

    But I defer to the real Pros's here.
  • Hitzkup
    Hitzkup Member Posts: 63
    Take off wrong

    The take off should be after the risers not in between them, this causes water to get forced into the steam piping which is the root cause for a bunch of problems.
  • Rod
    Rod Posts: 2,067
    Boiler Piping Problems

    Hi-  It would seem you have several problems.

    1. The riser going from the header to the mains shouldn't be located between the two risers coming off the boiler. In this configuration the steam streams appose each other and collide which results in water (wet steam) being carried up carry into the mains (See attached diagram)

    2. As others have mentioned,the riser going to the steam main should be coming off the top of the header and not the side. Otherwise it will pickup a lot of water from the header and result in "wet steam"

    3. From the picture angle I can't tell for sure but it doesn't seem to be a Hartford Loop connection to the Equalizer pipe. Things look pretty tight around the boiler but if you could get a picture of the equalizer pipe and how it connects to the bottom of the boiler this would really help.

    What is the make and model of your boiler? (This info should be on a plate attached to the boiler.)  You're lucky having a two pipe system as they can be easily tuned to get good economy and comfort.

    - Rod
  • Henry
    Henry Member Posts: 998
    Incorrect

    Steel pipe will expand at 10 times the rate of cast iron. So the way it is piped now, will force the boiler sections apart. We have replaced two boilers like this in the past two months! You need swing joints ie two 90s before joining the header. Which make and model boiler? I will post the link to the manufacturers instruction manual for you to see the proper piping arrangement

    Henry
  • Tedco
    Tedco Member Posts: 7
    Model

    Thanks to everyone for commenting! the model of the boiler is a GSA-250-N-SP - it has a bunch of other stuff attached to it ( a Gas Vent Damper, a SafGuard low water cutoff and a honeywell pressure thing)



    By the way, in the "find a contractor" section, will everyone be as knowledgable as you guys? or can a ask for a recommendation of steam experts in my area?



    Thanks again everyone,



    Ted
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,852
    edited December 2011
    No....

    Dan doesn't vette the people who sign up for Find A Contractor. Not enough days in the year, or hours in a day to do that.



    Where are you located? Not all of the best pros advertise in FAP.



    ME

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  • Tedco
    Tedco Member Posts: 7
    Brooklyn

    I am in Brooklyn, NY. Looking for somebody who can also explain what they are doing as I like to understand how everything works.



    P.S. I wish the math problems when posting were a little more challenging. :-)
  • Tedco
    Tedco Member Posts: 7
    Lousy Manual

    So, I read through the GSA manual which you can download from their website -> http://www.williamson-thermoflo.com/en/williamson/products/boilers/gas-boiler/gsa-gas-steam-atmospheric.aspx -



    And now I know why it was piped wrong! the only picture showing the piping only has one riser (probably a smaller boiler) and there is no mention of two risers! (page 11) - so what I got looks close to diagram 12 minus the two risers, and obviously the guy didn't know much about steam.



    I still need someone to fix it. Does anyone knows any good stream people in New York City?
  • Rod
    Rod Posts: 2,067
    edited December 2011
    Boiler Piping

    Hi- Good ! You have the installation instructions. As you can see they differ a bit from the configuration on your boiler. The instructions only show one steam boiler riser coming out of the boiler and your boiler has two boiler risers. Using both exit risers is a good thing as it slows down the velocity of the steam. You have to keep in mind that Manufacturer’s installation instructions are usually the minimum rather than the optimum.  They are geared to using the minimum amount of pipe and labor so as to be competitive for the lowest bid.



    I’m not quite sure where to start. You mentioned you have read “We Got Steam Heat!” so that’s good as you now understand the basics. Probably we need to figure out what needs to be done and then you will be in a better position to work with whom ever you get to re pipe your system.



    Let’s start by checking the pipe sizes of what you now have. The easiest way to do this is to measure the circumference of the piping and compare it with the chart I have attached below.

    I also have attached a chart which I took out of the GSA manual for another for a person who had a model 150.  Check the “A”,  “H”, and multiple “J” measurements and also the “X” and “Y” measurements.  We can’t see from the your  pictures, does your boiler have a Hartford Loop?



    From the sideways photo I notice multiple vents on the piping. It maybe helpful if you survey your piping and make a rough sketch so we can understand your system better. You’re lucky that you have a two pipe system as they can really be “tweeked” to get good performance.

    - Rod

    Note: Ignore the circled dimension in the pipe size chart. They were for the other GSA installation.
  • bob_46
    bob_46 Member Posts: 813
    Expansion

    Linear coefficient of expansion in/in/degreeF.

    Iron .000006x24x142=.020448 Steel .000007x124x142=.023856

    If risers are 24" on center and temp. rise is 142F degrees the header

    expands 31/2 thousandths inch more than boiler.I agree about swing joints

    and moving takeoff. I would reduce equalizer on the vertical.

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  • bob_46
    bob_46 Member Posts: 813
    Rod

    Rod I think you picked wrong boiler size. Should be 250....pipe size would be 3"

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  • Rod
    Rod Posts: 2,067
    Chart Markings

    Hi Bob- The original chart I used for another homeowner, that's why I said "Ignore the circled dimension in the pipe size chart." In this case the chart should only be used a a reference to where the "alphabetical marked" parts are located. We're just checking what the size of the presently installed piping is.

    - Rod
  • bob_46
    bob_46 Member Posts: 813
    Rod

    Sorry Rod, I don't read the posts I just look at the pictures.

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  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,852
    FAC

    Try these guys.



    http://www.heatinghelp.com/professional/66/Gateway-Plumbing-and-Heating



    Pretty sure the Cataneo boys do steam.



    ME

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  • Tedco
    Tedco Member Posts: 7
    over the weekend

    I'll post some more photos over the weekend. Thanks for everyone help!
  • KnaveP
    KnaveP Member Posts: 21
    edited December 2011
    Avoid....

    So I don't get into any legal issues, if you want to know who did the job displayed in the link, please shoot me an e-mail.





    They are responsible for this....



    http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/138633/Feedback-on-boiler-installation
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