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Will a Gorton 2 fit?

ChrisJ
ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,467
I am thinking I need more main venting but I don't know if I can squeeze one or more #2's in here.  What do you think?



From what I can tell I don't think I have the height but maybe I'm missing a change I can make.  I'm thinking another option is to add three more #1s.  I already don't care for how close the vents are to the main so I don't think going lower is an option.
Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment

Comments

  • Enreynolds
    Enreynolds Member Posts: 119
    What I would do

    Assuming that (in your picture) the main is pitched from right to left, replace your nipple and 45 with a nipple, ell, and union low enough to give you clearance for a #2. Orient the antler back along the main as far as youcan and still stay in that joist space (too long and you risk sagging and reversing the pitch of the antler that you got by running parallel to the main).  You protect your vents this way because water hammer is caught by the 180 turn, while air doesn't care, much the same way extending vents straight up on a nipple does.
  • Long Beach Ed
    Long Beach Ed Member Posts: 1,188
    edited December 2011
    No 2 ?

    You'll need one heck of a long main to make a No.2 vent cost effective.  Just how much of what size main are you venting? 



    Gorton LOVES you guys!
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,467
    pitch

    Its actually from left to right (downhill towards the right).  Technically I think the vents belong on the other side of the joist but this was easier and probably works fine as the vent is back from the end of the main.



    I suppose I could put a 90 coming right out of the main and run it back towards the left and then use a 45 to give it pitch but its not going to be too high off of the main. 
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,467
    main size

    I have an 11' 2" main and a 29' 2" main.



    The main with the three #1s is the 29 footer while I have a single #1 on the short 11 footer.  My biggest issue right now is the 11 foot main keeps stealing steam first as its first on the header. 

    I want the rads on both mains to heat together, not the 3 on the short main and then all others.  I have Hoffman 1A's on all 10 rads and 2 out of the 3 on that short main are as slow as I can get them so far. 



    Ed,  by the way your idea worked.  Increasing the venting slightly on the rad near the thermostat caused the rest of the house to stay pretty decent.  Though the room with the thermostat still overheats some its far better overall.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Enreynolds
    Enreynolds Member Posts: 119
    Ed

    You are absolutely right, even venting at 1 oz, those 3 #1s are way more than enough to vent that .63 cf of air in less than a minute.  Sorry, I am used to much larger mains.
  • Enreynolds
    Enreynolds Member Posts: 119
    Ed

    You are absolutely right, even venting at 1 oz, those 3 #1s are way more than enough to vent that .63 cf of air in less than a minute.  Sorry, I am used to much larger mains.
  • Long Beach Ed
    Long Beach Ed Member Posts: 1,188
    Think Like Steam

    Chris, if one route for the steam is too easy, it will ignore all other routes. 



    I hear folks say "you can never vent a main too fast," but then they complain that only one main -- the one with huge vents -- is heating. 



    Steam take its easiest route.  It begins to condense there and that condensation creates a vacuum which draws in more steam.  That's how you can explain two radiators on a riser, both with the same huge vents, with only one heating.  On the next cycle only the other heats.  Can drive you nuts. 



    You have to limit the venting on the faster main so some steam finds the other main to be a less restrictive option.  Got it? 



    Putting "nostril sized" vents everywhere can lead to some really strange distribution problems.   "Balancing" often means restricting some places as well as opening others.



    Now you know why most main vents used to have little holes and why they still make vents with little holes! 
  • crash2009
    crash2009 Member Posts: 1,484
    Two rads one riser

    I can relate to the two rads/one riser part Ed.  I had exactly the same problem you describe.  I tried a lot of different combinations to get them to heat at the same time.  I ended up installing a pair of Ventrite #1's.  Both Ventrites are open to the max.  (.125 cfm @2 oz)  They both work great now.  I installed a pair of Gorton 5's (.130 cfm @ 2 oz) Just five thousandths different cfm, then the rads both started to hit and miss.  So I put the Ventrites back and havn't had a problem since.  The part I cant figure out is why.  What is your solution to the two rad one riser problem?
  • Long Beach Ed
    Long Beach Ed Member Posts: 1,188
    edited December 2011
    All in the Venting, Crash

    Ask yourself, "what did I change".   The difference is in the venting. 



    The bigger (quicker) vent offered insufficient backpressure to assure steam would travel into both radiators.  A slower vent forces some of the steam to seek another route.



    Dan would paint this picture:  Imagine a line of people exiting the subway.  They travel in a line -- people, like lemmings like to follow one another.  That is - until the route gets jammed up and starts to slow down.  Then a few folks will find another exit.  They break from the crowd and now the people are traveling through two separate exits.



    When all conditions were right (or actually wrong), the steam chugged up at just the right rate and volume to favor one radiator.  Once it got in there and condensed, it formed a vacuum which sucked in more steam.  If conditions were right, none of the steam even bothered entering the other radiator. 



    Remember that there are more variables than simply the venting rate, and some of the others change all the time.  There's the temperature of the iron radiators and steel mains, which will affect the amount of condensate produced, which will affect the velocity of the steam entering the radiator and even effect the movement of steam within that pipe.   There is the velocity and volume of steam being put into that riser and the pressure of it. 



    You have venting rates for two vents at 2 ounces.  But what are those rates when the steam is just arriving as some feather-like vapor?   Which vent traps water which restricts its early venting? 



    Dozens of variables.  It's not as simple as "vent it all as fast as you can".   I think I just cost Gorton a $70 sale.



    The more you work with this stuff the more you experience and the more you know.  But no matter how much you do for how many years every so often you come across a job that you conquer and you step back and say, "How about that one!" 
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,467
    edited December 2011
    Interesting

    I suppose tonight I'm going to swap out that single Gorton 1 on the short main with a Hoffman 4A and simple observe what happens.



    I wasn't sure if adding more venting on the long main was going to help for the simple fact I have yet to see my 3psi gauge move at all unless I close one of the king valves.  To me this means I'm not building pressure so what can I possibly vent with more vents?



    Restricting the one main which heats first, at least in my mind should slow it down and force the steam to move on to the second main.

    See,  I knew I bought those two 4As for a reason and it wasn't by mistake because I don't make mistakes (yea, right....).   Buying a house with a rotted undersized boiler hooked to a plugged undersized chimney doesn't count. :)
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • crash2009
    crash2009 Member Posts: 1,484
    Chris

    Check those Gortons for stuck open when you take them down.  Turn the vent upside down and blow, if you can blow through it it is stuck open. 



    To test for close on pressure, hold right side up and blow.  You should be able to blow it closed. 



    I don't see much pressure on my 0-3 either.  Usually just .02 .03 .04.  It was 23 F last night here.  Have been getting some pressure lately.  How cold is it where you are? 
  • crash2009
    crash2009 Member Posts: 1,484
    Open Vent Surgury

    Yea, I never thought about what those rad vents are doing when there is no pressure (feather-like)  It looks like the Ventrite can be disassembled.  I am going to open one up, and see whats inside. 
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,467
    Hoffman 4A

    Well I swapped out the single Gort 1 for a Hoffman 4A on the 11' main and fired the system up. All I can say is right now I'm amazed.



    I had to turn two radiators down in my kitchen that weren't getting hot enough before. My bedroom rad might have to be turned UP a hair now, but maybe not.



    The 60EDR rad in the livingroom is actually behaving and not becoming a blast furnace. Of course it has only run once so who knows what it will act like over time, but so far it looks promising.





    Crash : I know the vents are not sticking open from the fact that by some miracle I appear not to be loosing much, if any water now that I tightened all of the packing nuts on the radiator valves.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,467
    current settings

    Can't promise I'm going to leave it this way but heres where I'm at.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • crash2009
    crash2009 Member Posts: 1,484
    Test

    I was just suggesting the blow test to you so that you know how to do it.  You will save yourself some troubleshooting time if you test them before you install them.  I have found three duds so far, in the thirty that I have installed.



    I will have to watch Gerry's video again, but at this point I beleive the Gorton #1 has two different ways it can close. 

    It is supposed to close on temperature, meaning that the bi-metalic spring gets hot  and lifts the pin to the top of the case.  But I also think it can close on pressure because when I do the upright blow test, I can close it with lung pressure.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,467
    Ah

    I have tested all of them by blowing through them both rightside up and upside down.  I did this with rad vents as well.



    The Gorton vents can close either by temperature or by water.  Pressure will hold them shut but not close them initially.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • crash2009
    crash2009 Member Posts: 1,484
    Just checking

     to see if you tested them Chris.  I was eliminating the possability of a runaway G1 on the short main.
This discussion has been closed.