Welcome! Here are the website rules, as well as some tips for using this forum.
Need to contact us? Visit https://heatinghelp.com/contact-us/.
Click here to Find a Contractor in your area.

Beckett AFG Oil Burner Issues

Options
Jarb
Jarb Member Posts: 17
I have a Peerless Pinnacle Oil Boiler with a Beckett AFG Oil Burner with R7184P primary control. The pump is a Cleancut. I had a burner tech out. He had to replace the transformer. Then noticed the solenoid valve would randomly shut off during operation. He replaced that as well. The boiler documentation says to set the oil pressure at 130PSI. He could not get the boiler to run at all at that pressure. He set it higher, maybe around 150PSI. Good for a week, now boiler sometimes will not fire. I noticed it seemed to not be spraying oil. I tapped on the solenoid when it was supposed to be opening and it worked.  It seems to be sticking.



I can not find where to buy just a solenoid. It is a Suntech 115volt 60hz 9watt with the number 3713824 printed on it. Should I replace just the solenoid or the whole pump?



Also, I noticed that the pump literature says that if the oil level is lower than the pump, use a two pipe system. But, it says that the suction ability of the pump is 8 feet. The oil level is lower than the pump (the burner is on top of the boiler and fires down). Should I be using a two pipe system?



Thanks!

Comments

  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Options
    Beckett/Pumps:

    I've been told that the solenoid parts of the Suntec pumps are not replaceable. They come and are part of the pumps.

    I consider them en evil and hateful deed on the part of Suntec because I can not use my Kwik-Check Pump Tester on most burners with the clean cut solenoid because it is in the way of the HP line. I had to make a special adapter to use it.

    As far as I know, you can't eliminate the solenoid on the pump and install a single one to replace it. It sounds like the pump may be bad also.
  • Jarb
    Jarb Member Posts: 17
    Options
    update

    Thank you for the reply. My first post/reply. Something comforting about knowing you can talk to people about this stuff.



    I read about that issue with the pressure tester on another site. Seems pretty short sighted on the part of suntech. Another guy said he would disconnect the line that feeds the nozzle and put a pressure gauge on instead. He mentioned he did not know if dead ending the gauge like that was a good thing to do. Any thoughts?



    Last night it took me a while to get the pump going. This morning it won't go at all. Luckily it is not too cold right now but its sunday and I have to get a new pump.



    Any thoughts on the single or double pipe setup?
  • Techman
    Techman Member Posts: 2,144
    edited November 2011
    Options
    Solenoid valve.

    What is the voltage reading for the coil/time delay device? What is the actual vacuum reading at the oil pump? That reading will help in determining 1 or 2 stage.
  • Jarb
    Jarb Member Posts: 17
    Options
    readings

    The voltage reading was 120 volts. I do not know the vacuum reading at the pump. I suppose I could install a permanent vacuum gauge (I read somewhere else this is helpful in quickly determining fuel filter/clogging problems).



    The pump is 5 feet off the floor and the bottom of the oil tanks is 10 inches off the floor. The oil line does go up to the floor joists and reaches a maximum of 7 feet 4 inches off floor.



    Any experience with the screw on oil filters? I was thinking of replacing my conventional setup with a screw on type for ease of changing. I was also wondering if I should put a check valve in the line.
  • billtwocase
    billtwocase Member Posts: 2,385
    Options
    If the pump is no good

    and i would rather see it replaced if you are having cut-off issues, you will need to have the pressure set to the burner/boiler specs. They come set at 100 PSI, and depending on what it is supplying fuel to, some pressures are up to 190 PSI on certain units. You should have it troubleshot, and replaced by a professional. Oil spills, etc. give oil heat a bad rap. The pump needs to be set with a gauge, and the combustion tested as well.
  • billtwocase
    billtwocase Member Posts: 2,385
    Options
    also

    to answer you question about 2 pipe versus 1 pipe. From what you are describing, 2 pipe system is not needed. A good filter at the tank, and a strainer inside the pump is good. Filter meaning Garber or General. I would check the control over good also. Is the ground for the valve on a separate terminal? You could have power yes, but i have seen those controls do funny things lately. Could be intermittent hot or ground issues coming from the control. I haven't had a clean-cut pump fail, personally, since they hit the market, and they have been around for at least a decade? I had a couple that had weepy pump seals, but they worked.
  • Jarb
    Jarb Member Posts: 17
    Options
    replace pump

    Just spent some time taking the existing pump off and looking inside. All looked clean, no junk in it etc. I'll try putting it back on and trying it out.



    Pressure: the boiler says to set the pressure to 130 psi. The label on the burner says 175 psi. I think that is the normal pressure for the burner. Like I said before, the burner tech could not get the burner to run at 130 psi. Had to go up to about 150 psi. (he did not have his gauge on it after determining 130 didn't work and he wasn't going for some target number so he went up until it ran well) It was not as high as the last burner tech had it at (180 psi).



    I will buy a new pump tomorrow. I will try 130 psi, which should work. Anyone know a way to test the Suntech solenoid that operates the delay valve? I would like to be able to test that in the future to eliminate it as a problem before thinking it might be the pump.



    Someone told me that making a full loop with the oil line before entering the pump is a good way to trap air before it enters pump. Any thoughts??



    I'm also wondering about the fuel inlet on the pump. Their are two. One goes into the main pump body and one into the strainer housing. Any difference? Does the one on the body just send the oil right into the same spot?



    After I get done with the pump issues and get it going nice, I will get the tech back out to adjust properly to ensure clean burn, after all, that is the whole point in having a finicky high efficient machine right? I tell ya, its been burning no oil today... but my house is COLD.

    Thanks!!
  • Jarb
    Jarb Member Posts: 17
    Options
    also

    Thanks a bunch. Fact you haven't seen them fail makes me feel better about the unit anyway. I will check the electrical from the controller. I kind of assumed it would be good. Thought those were pretty solid.

    I'll leave the single pipe system as you suggest. It worked great year one. I'm going to pick up a pump no matter what since it's nice to know I have a back up. I've also been rapping on this delay valve and after taking it apart, I realize how close the tolerances are inside. That solenoid barely moves that stem to allow the oil to go through. (and I've been wacking it, sometimes annoyed and aggressively).



    Thanks much. I really appreciate the help!
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Options
    Pump Tester:

    For what it's worth, my Mitco Kwik-Check pump tester won't fit on Suntec Clean Cut pumps. They use the test port for the solenoid. My first problem was with a Carlin EZ-1. There isn't enough room between the nozzle line fitting and the Mitco flare adapter that connects to a 3/16" flare. I took a ready made Carlin copper pump to nozzle tube and could bend it around the solenoid. I was then able to get a 3/16" flare adapters to make the connections. A 3/16" flare coupling would have been nice but I had to do it with fittings.

    I keep my adapters in my quick check case.
  • billtwocase
    billtwocase Member Posts: 2,385
    Options
    are you sure

    that you are not getting fuel, but no ignition? Did it try to recycle when you had flame failure? Did it light off again? Could be more of a burner adjustment issue, and needing a tune/clean?
  • billtwocase
    billtwocase Member Posts: 2,385
    Options
    I should add

    Flame failure could be caused by a flame "floating away". I meant to mention this in the previous post. This is usually due to settings that are not correct, or too much air, and will cause this problem after the ignition drops out. By increasing the pump pressure, this helps to correct that. Someone who knows this boiler/burner package needs to start from scratch.
  • Jarb
    Jarb Member Posts: 17
    Options
    reply

    When the burner wouldn't fire, I checked the boiler and I could not smell any oil in the boiler. I figured that it wasn't getting fuel. Thats when I tapped on the solenoid and it worked.



    The tech that was just out checked everything out and made sure that it was right. He replaced the nozzle, cleaned everything etc. He found a bad transformer and replaced. (probably bad because boiler ran like crap all last winter and electrodes were probably all sooted up. Not to mention, the boiler is only 3 years old and everything was set just right then.



    I did see that Bard Manufacturing puts a tee in on the outlet of the pump before connecting the line that feeds the burner. I might do this. Of course this works for me on my boiler but I doubt the rest of you guys want to go doing this on all the boilers you service. Page 9 under Beckett "Cleancut" oil pump.

    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=beckett%20cleancut%20tee%20test%20gauge%20warning&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CDcQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bardhvac.com%2Fdigcat%2Fvolume_3_cd%2Finstall_pdf_file%2F2100-392.pdf&ei=v-_SToHtLdPJ0AHp67FA&usg=AFQjCNFYFR-o5TtwaUVZyDQttJmln5o9bA&cad=rja



    So I took the pump off and peeked around. Then my curiosity got the best of me and I took it apart. I put it back together and of course... it doesn't work at all now. Look as though they are pretty straight forward in there though. It wasn't working before so no loss. I still would like to have a good way to test that Suntec solenoid. It seems as though the pump is a pretty solid mechanical device and would be less likely to fail than electronics or electromagnetic devices.



    I am going to get a new pump tomorrow and install. I'll pick up a couple suntec solenoids too if they have them. Going to be chilly tonight. Have to bundle up my 2.5 year and 4 month old. I have an old wood/coal fired Energen boiler in my garage. Too bad that wasn't already installed. I'll have to consult everyone when the time comes to put it in. :-)
  • clammy
    clammy Member Posts: 3,113
    Options
    tiger loop

    Do yourself a favor ,replace the pump /solonoid and have a tiger loop installed .When ever i install any oil fired equiptment i install a tiger loop if the oil lines are set up as a 2 pipe .Look at most german oil fired equiptment and they usually always recommend a tiger loop .I always use them on any burner thats oil pump pressure is being boosted above 140 psi .A tiger loop will deairate the oil and cut pump vacume and in some cases hi vacume can cause nunance lock outs .The big issue i have with standard 2 pipe is you filter all the oil you pump in your case 18 gph and burn what 1 gallon per hour .Take a close look at  the peerless instruction it may even show a tiger loop in there oil piping diagrams ..high vacume in oil piping always causes issues .Peace and good luck clammy
    R.A. Calmbacher L.L.C. HVAC
    NJ Master HVAC Lic.
    Mahwah, NJ
    Specializing in steam and hydronic heating
  • Jarb
    Jarb Member Posts: 17
    Options
    Tiger Loop Installation

    I picked up a tiger loop. I have a question regarding the installation. The diagram shows a filter, then a loop that swoops down and back up into the tiger loop. Is it actually neccessary to put the filter immediately before the loop or can I leave it where it is at the outlet of the tank?

    Also wondering if you have any experience with the spin on oil filters vs the conventional general filters. Thanks.
  • clammy
    clammy Member Posts: 3,113
    Options
    2 schools of thought

    I personally like a standard general filter at least when you change the filter you get an idea of how much junk your filtering and the condition of your tank .While the spin on type do a great job and changing them is usually alot cleaner of a job because there is less of a chance of spillage but when a general is set up right it is no big deal .Also do yourself a favor and get a set of 3 flexable oil lines and some 1/4 fittings ,nipples ,coupling and 90 's it makes connections to the pump easy also install a tee with a plug in the supply line to the tiger loop this way if there is a issue you an throw a vacume gauge on it to see what your pulling .This was the way i used to do it when i worked the oil game 24/7 service and i like to solve the issue not just get you flame hate the call back and the ball busting when ya have one and every one has a call back once in a while .Thats how you learn but it should not be at the custermers expensine unless ther are other issues .As for filter at the tank or by the equiptment i take the filter by the equiptment .Hope this helped .peace and good luck clammy
    R.A. Calmbacher L.L.C. HVAC
    NJ Master HVAC Lic.
    Mahwah, NJ
    Specializing in steam and hydronic heating
  • Jarb
    Jarb Member Posts: 17
    Options
    Success!?

    So far so good. I just replaced the pump. The supply house only had an A2EA-6528 pump which had all the same specs. The only difference I noticed was the outlet. I had to use the supplied 90. The other one had a straight connector. I tried to transplant the straight connector to the new one but the part that sticks into the pump is totally different. Anyway, put the new pump on, much better. Ran good so far. I did not put the TigerLoop on because I am a firm believer in simple is always better. I don't want to add more stuff that could fail. I measured the height and length of pipe and it is within the limits stated in the pump paperwork. I am also going to stick with the general filter mainly because I already have it and it will work. I spent enough already.

    SO, when the first boiler tech came out year one. He left and a few days later the boiler was blowing black smoke. He said "thats weird, the pump pressure was low". He cranked the pressure up to about 180. The boiler says that it is supposed to be at 130. He also used a different brand nozzle than the recommended Danfoss. Ran like garbage all winter. New boiler tech changed nozzle to recommended nozzle, and tried to set pressure to 130 but wouldn't run. He had to set it higher. Based on this info, I think the pump has been bad from that initial incident.

    I set the pressure at 135 but used a pressure gauge that was dead headed. My thought was the static pressure would be a little higher than the dynamic pressure with flow going through the nozzle. Not sure if this is accurate thinking. I might rearrange my test gauge with a tee instead and double check.

    How does everyone feel about using alternate brand nozzles? Should you only use the exact nozzle specified?

    Thanks everyone for your help, I really appreciate it!!!
  • Robert_25
    Robert_25 Member Posts: 530
    Options
    Use the correct nozzle

    Use the recommended nozzle and pressure settings.
  • Jarb
    Jarb Member Posts: 17
    Options
    Thanks

    Thank you for the advice, I will. Happen to know where I can buy Danfoss nozzles? I need a .55 gph 60 degree AS (solid conical)

    I'm having trouble finding them.
  • Jarb
    Jarb Member Posts: 17
    Options
    Success, no such luck!!!

    Replaced the pump, set the pressure, everything was great... for a few days. Now I'm back to having issues. Flame ignites but when the ignition is shut of, it flutters and goes out.

    I do not have any replacement nozzles because NO ONE sells Danfoss Brass 0.55 gph 60 AS.

    I have the original .45 gph nozzle that came with the boiler as the other BTU output for the boiler. I am going to take it apart and clean everything, check all the burner head settings and try. If no go, I'll change nozzle.

    I did a check on the resistance for the cad cell and it was too high. Can this be resolved by cleaning the sensor eye or must it be replaced?

    I'm trying not to be to hasty but I would highly recommend against buying this boiler. It costs a fortune and so far I have had nothing but trouble. Another major drawback is every time it shuts off due to an issue, the primary control shuts the blower off. Since the burner is on top of the combustion chamber firing down, all the nasty smoke rises back up through the burner. It smells awful. Then, even if the burner is running well, it still smells because the burner is covered with that nasty smoke residue. Terrible, terrible, terrible. Hindsight.
  • billtwocase
    billtwocase Member Posts: 2,385
    Options
    I would contact Peerless

    and have a rep come out, and recommend a reputable service company. I would not try to clean and reinstall the old nozzle. Too much of a crap shoot. This boiler needs to be set up from scratch, and more important, with combustion testing. Your cad cell eye might need wiping, but it is the maladjustments that are causing problems. I would also look into the pre and post purge adjustments. Your post-purge may not be long enough to eliminate all of the after burn, and that is what rises from the top. We have seen quite a few down fired units show up on the market from time to time. It was never a great design, but GE came close decades ago.
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Options
    New Modern (odd) boilers:

    Whenever I have met a boiler/burner combination like this in my more than a few years of experience, it is unresolvable by me. Some designer comes up with a breakthrough idea and takes the finished product to a burner manufacturer and wants them to make it work. With a lot of work, under test bench conditions, they get it to work.

    In the field, they expect us to make miracles. They barely fire with nozzles that they spent a lot of time in testing to find one that works acceptably. Then, in the field, those of us who have to use what we can easily find, are expected by the consumer, to make that bad idea come to fruition.

    High resistance on the cad cell means a lousy flame.

    Like Bill2K's said, Down-fired boilers were never too good. GE came the closest. I've only seen a couple of them. If I saw another one, I would insist changing the boiler or get someone else.

    From the smallest oil boiler to the largest mega-boiler in power plants and ships, they all fore in the front and at the bottom. There must be a reason that they aren't wrong.

    Ideas like this will bankrupt a company.
  • Jarb
    Jarb Member Posts: 17
    Options
    I couldn't have said it better icesailor

    I wish I would have stepped back a second when going through the decision making process of buying a boiler. Should have went we the classic design that works. I hesitated a few times but still bought it. Terrible decision. I can totally picture that exact scenario of developing a boiler, then trying to get a burner to work with it and just about getting right and then calling it a day. A HUGE part of having a good boiler is that it should be just about bullet proof. People have to rely on these things for heat. They NEED to work, even if they have to limp along sometimes. I have learned first hand of this. I would gladly sacrifice 7% efficiency for solid, reliable operation.



    I got the thing running again. I took it all apart, cleaned it, checked everything. Didn't work so I changed the nozzle to the .45 GPH 60 AS Danfoss nozzle that came with the boiler (new). If it runs good for more than.... a week, I will try to hunt down some Danfoss nozzles (still don't know where to buy them, tried emailing the company).



     I don't think having the peerless rep come out will help. I spoke with him on the phone and he is an a$$. He immediately got defensive and started rattling off things that could possibly be causing a problem. Ultimately they will what, give me a replacement? I don't want another one of these things! If it doesn't run, I might have to just to give them a chance to do something about this. I would LOVE a replacement with another model... a conventional model. That would be nice.



    Thanks again people.
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Options
    Burners:

    Beckett Burners:

    Everyone seems to love them. I find them to as nasty as my cat. Pat the cat too long and it will bite you. Pick it up and it will claw you while trying to get away.

    I have two sets of set up gauges with a gazillion settings on them. I never know what I am dealing with. Nor, what plates and other special parts are used on that particular combination. I'm not saying they aren't any good. They are. But if someone like me, with as many years I have with coming home with oil smell on my clothes, can't make them run right, how the heck do you, or why would you, think YOU can make it run. Then, I look in an old Beckett OEM book and see all the changes to applications over the years. It makes my head hurt.

    That's why I like my Carlins. Same parts, same suggested nozzles, never fail and no (my most hated thing) "Z" measurement. I have never pulled a burner out to check that "Z" measurement that it wasn't on the mark or the end cone had fallen off.

    My most inportant Beckett tool is an old copper fitting brush that I stick my (soon to be) grimey paw down the tube to scrape the carbon build up off the end cone WHERE THAT "Z" DEMENSION IS". Perhaps this is one of your problems. And another resolution is to make the transformer run all the time.

    Your solution is for someone (like me) who truely loves that burner (NOT me) and knows what they are doing (not me) and combustion analyze it. Not likely. None of us appreciate having to do engineering for them in the field and get the same argument from a Rep that you did.

    Don't get me started on my POS cell phones and themajor national carrier I use. They are just as bad.
  • add
    add Member Posts: 94
    Options
    beckett is the way to heat with oil

    followed by the best italian burner "riello".dear ice i feel the same way about the carlin with the difference that i can handle it.i see you haven't change in this last year.this gentleman needs a good oilman ,there is nothing wrong with the pinnacle.
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Options
    Help Wanted:

    I absolutely agree, he needs help. Find the help. I like a project. But I like to have HOPE for a happy conclusion.

    Notice that the origonal nozzle supplied works best. Or better than anything that anyone else tried.
  • add
    add Member Posts: 94
    Options
    Beckett burner banging real bad

    the longest thread last year by jcamp.once the help arrived by some including the great A.Mercurio very known in my area the gentleman refused help,i guess he got used to the banging.
  • add
    add Member Posts: 94
    Options
    Beckett burner banging real bad

    the longest thread last year by jcamp.once the help arrived by some including the great A.Mercurio very known in my area the gentleman refused help,i guess he got used to the banging.
This discussion has been closed.