Steam to forced hot water-worth it????

EG_shamrock

I live in a 1100 square foot home. Currently have old coal boiler converted to oil. Steam radiator heat. I am converting to gas. My question is do I stay with steam - cost to convert about 7700 to 9300 or do I convert to forced hot water. Quoted cost us 13500 with rebates. Is forced hot water worth the extra $$$$$.

Steamhead

Not unless you like living dangerously

Though we don't discuss pricing on this forum, from what you posted it sounds like they are going to use the existing piping and radiators for hot-water.



Don't do it.



First of all, your radiators may be a type that cannot work with hot-water at all.



Second, if they are a type that can work with hot-water, they may not be big enough to heat the house that way since a hot-water rad can only give off 2/3 the heat of a steam one. And if they are "big enough", they will probably need water so hot that a condensing boiler won't condense much of the time- bye-bye, touted higher efficiency.



Third, hot-water requires about ten times the operating pressure of steam. If there are any weak points in the piping or rads, you WILL have leaks.



Keep the steam. You can equal the comfort and the efficiency of hot-water with a well-functioning steam system, assuming both systems use similar boilers and are in otherwise good condition.

nicholas bonham-carter

Worthwhile conversion?

Steam head has hit the nail on the head, and most here would agree that a conversion from steam to hot water would cause more problems than solutions. .

You have to remember that when these steam systems were first installed, the heat they offered was quiet and economical. The goal is to return the system to its original state of operation.

If you follow our collective advice here, then make sure that your new steam boiler is:

1.sized for the radiation, not the heat load of the house (do not just use the capacity of the old boiler).

2.installed with piping exactly as shown in the mfg's manual as a minimum.

3.the main (not radiator) venting is sized to the main supply piping.

If you still want to consider a conversion, the count on new radiators, and piping, which in some situations may be a benefit.--NBC

EG_shamrock

Thank you

Thank you both. The contractor is so convincing re: advantages with regard to cost to heat; higher efficiency of hot water boiler; multiple zones; overall comfort;etc. I now know I am not to talk cost so won't but I did not want to be penny wise and pound foolish if in fact the additional $$$$ were well worth the advantages. The gas companies kick in more rebates for hot water so just wanted to make sure I wasn't making a mistake staying with steam. The conversion from oil to gas will save me tons to begin with since my current boiler is such a relic.

Jean-David Beyer

I am a homeowner, not a professional.

Furthermore, I heat with a high efficiency modulating-condensing hot water boiler with outdoor reset. I could claim that boiler runs at an efficiency of 98%, which it may well do once in a while, though it runs at an efficiency of around 93% most of the time. If you look at the efficiencies of steam boilers in residential use, they come out a little lower, in the very high 80s for the best ones.



But it is easy to be fooled by these numbers, not because the manufacturers give overoptimistic ratings, but because you are not interested merely in the efficeincy of the boiler, but the efficiency of the entire system. What you really want to know is the efficiency to get the heat from the gas or oil all the way to the load: the temperature of the rooms to be heated (and possibly the temperature of the domestic hot water to be heated). And while the two are related, they are not the same. With hot water, there are the the additional capital costs of the circulators and zone valves to move the water around, the costs of the electricity to operate them, and so on. And when making a conversion, there are the capital costs of ripping out the old radiators and piping and installing all new. This might involve the cost of  opening up interior walls. I have never priced any of that, but it can quickly eat up any rebates. Also, especially if your piping is in exterior walls, you will have to deal with insulating them or using anti-freeze in the heating water.



I am not a professional, but I have read a lot about it, especially here. I would rely on the professionals here that recommand against the conversion, not on a salesman whose commissions depend on the number of conversions sold.

Steve Whitbeck

conversion

If the contractor has done the heat loss and since he is talking multiple zones that says he is planing on at least some repiping. I have done conversions many times and every customer has been VERY happy and the heating costs have gone down considerably.

If done properly the comfort level will increase also because hot water heat is more even and the radiators will heat up quicker.

If it can be done I would do it.

icesailor

Conversions:

1100 Sq. Ft isn't a lot of house.

Do you have have any asbestos insulation on the pipes or on the boiler? If you do, did they add in the cost of asbestos remediation? That ain't cheap.

When the boiler and system is up and steaming, is the cellar hot or way above whet it would be if not running? You need insulation. If the pipes have asbestos, get it remediated. Then, cover every heating pipe with a minimum of 1/2" fiberglass. Including elbows. Put the energy in the heat emitters, not the cellar or crawl space.

They never discuss the hidden costs when they are telling you how much you will save. And five years from now, Nat Gas will be right up there with the expensive when the gas futures get up there with fuel oil and gasoline and the Banksters and Wall Street crime family get done running up the market.

Vaguely ask that "heating Pro" what the difference that steam radiators will see when they are converted to hot water. If he/she gives you a vague answer, like nothing, heat is heat, find someone else. An old steam radiator has probably never seen more than 2# of pressure. That same radiator, converted to hot water may "see" up to 20# on the first floor and almost 30# under certain conditions.

And if you demand an exact contract price from the contractor to do the steam to hot water conversion, not including the boiler, don't be drinking coffee when he gives you his exact price (not an "Estimate" or not to exceed price), you will choke on your coffee and spit it in his face or all over the toilet paper contract.

It takes a lot of time to figure out how you are going to do something like this. By the time I get done figuring out something that will work and give someone the price, they do something else. I give lots of options and hope that one is done to pay for my time.

I'm not giving price numbers here but, if you are willing to spend $20,000 on a conversion to hot water, and the boiler is $10,000 with $5,000 in rebates, that's $15,000 to make the conversion. That doesn't include insulation and tightening up the house. Take the $15,000 and add insulation. Change the boiler, save a lot of money right away, Green your Steam in ways shown here, and you will be way ahead of the curve.

Anyone who doesn't offer you this solution or option is not working in your best interest.  

EG_shamrock

More thanks - becoming clear

Really appreciate everyones posts. I received many many quotes and the contractor that also recommended hot water has provided a straight up conversion to gas and keep steam. He was one of the higher quotes but when I put all quotes side by side he was the only one that recommended a combustion air fan.....all others did not address and when I asked they basically said they only put in if inspector requires it. I actually like the idea of it if stay steam - which I think I will do. Any thoughts on the need for a fan.



Also I have used this contractor in the past and have been pleased with his work - kitchen redo......I trust him.



As for what I have done so far - replaced most windows and have insulated all pipes. House could still use a few more windows, tighter front door and a review of insulation. So seems like might make more sense to stay steam and put extra cash toward some of these other energy saving measures.



Keep providing opinions!! All this info is very helpful and I have to make a decision by Monday!!! Thanks